Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Desert Fox]

That's Texas for you.

Not like Virginia is much better, the state that petitioned to destroy DNA evidence so that it cannot be used to find out if somebody might have been innocent.

Reason for bringing this is up to indicate that I am perfectly willing to criticize the United States.

 

[carbonjam72]

A few words on character

CJ72:
I would argue that I don't take much stock in people saying that AK/RS are the nicest people you ever meet. This has been said about some of the most horrible people ever known.

I don't consider them either angels or devils

It has some weight but if the crime scene showed them to be guilty, I would accept that they are guilty.

Hi DF; If the crime scene showed them to be guilty, they would be maniacal killers, instead of innocent people framed for a brutal crime they had nothing to do with.

Their characters, and who they are as people, are every bit as much a fact, as their innocence or guilt.

I'm not asking you to agree with my perception here, so perhaps I spoke out of turn, but I'll tell you a story I heard from Steve Moore on LipTV.

In high school, Amanda was given an award for "compassion", by her high school teachers. The award didn't exist before they gave it to her, but her teachers felt she needed to be recognized for the way she treated her fellow students.

It's not the only story. Is it all part of some PR campaign of which I have become the latest dupe? There is a consistency to these stories, a ring of truth. I watched Amanda plead for her life before the Italian courts. I saw what I saw. Is that confirmation bias?

Rafaele, we need not discount the similar stories told about him by the people who know him best. We need only look at his actions. He could have achieved a lighter sentence by giving false testimony against Amanda. He didn't. That's not a story, that's an action. And its says something. To the guilter, it might mean, he's defending himself by sticking to a fake alibi. But I have no more words for them today.

That these two people should cross paths with what can only be described as a living walking nightmare, a literal madman in the guise of a public prosecutor, spinning insane sex crazed crime theories against anyone in sight; is like the best of people, crossing paths with the worst.

This story is Shakespearean, in a way. And I think that's why it has attracted the interest and commitment of so many people of accomplishment, talent, and integrity to it's cause.

So let's leave the talk of angels and devils to the mad prosecutor of Perugia. And do what we can to reverse this injustice.

 

[Planigale]

Has anybody seen this:
"Amanda Knox Body Language on Chris Cuomo Interview Shows Odd Behavior and Lack of Genuine Emotion"
This Lillian Glass person analyzes the Knox-Coumo interview and declares her guilty because of facial expressisons, etc.
The author does not take into consideration the fact that Knox is probably traumatized by this seven years of persecution.
There are a swarm of Flies feeding on this article, CaliDeeva, Yves L., etc. Where do these people come from?
Analemma

Genuine JREF woo along with graphology and astrology. Love to see her turn up here and try and defend her pseudoscience, L Ron Hubbard wrote books, does not make Scientology true! Whilst I know it is illogical I cannot help think that having astrologers and body language interpreters as fellow travellers makes me more certain that those who believe in the guilt of Sollecito and Knox are wrong.

 

[acbytesla]

Not like Virginia is much better, the state that petitioned to destroy DNA evidence so that it cannot be used to find out if somebody might have been innocent.

Reason for bringing this is up to indicate that I am perfectly willing to criticize the United States.

Criticizing the United States is the national pastime in the US. It is the one thing that I truly think is great about my country. That is what allows us to adapt and reform our government and its policies.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the shape of things

ANOTHER ONE!!!!!
Stunning Interview by Amanda Knox with Chris Cuomo
The author is, get this, "Eyes for Lies Deception and Credibility Expert"
Lots and lots of flies here high fiving each other with Gusto
"defenders on the PR payroll have sociopath tendancies"
Where do the Italian judges find and hire these people?

I think Eyes-For-Lies is way off-base. However, the claim that Amanda is a shape-shifting reptillian is actually more credible.

 

[Desert Fox]

Really? If I'm acquitted of a crime, I don't want anything to do with any "Motivation" document--who cares.

If I'm convicted, I guess a "Motivation" is OK, since it might give some additional reasons to appeal.

One thing I've always wondered, though, is what relationship the Italian's judge's "Motivation" actually has to the jurors' deliberations. Do we think that they discussed in detail all of the points raised in the Nencini Report, or is the Report just some post facto justification for a decision that was made for different reasons?

As I wrote earlier, cases in the US decided by judges have the equivalent of motivation reports.

I suspect that the jury did not decided anything in this case but Nencini declared them guilty and told the jury that.

 

[kwill]

.
I also like the idea of Motivation documents. I think accused persons deserve them as a fundamental right. I wish we had them in Canada.

Perhaps it should be the prosecuting team that has to provide a Motivations document before the trial begins, or maybe even before charges are laid. The judge and jury would have to stick to the prosecution's script and either approve or disapprove it, plus provide a document giving their reasons for doing so.

If the prosecuting team had to produce a motivations document they might be more likely to find the evidence first, and charge people later, rather than the other way around. It would also force them to put some serious thought into assembling the evidence they have into a consistent and believable theory..

Maybe lawyers here can enlighten me on this, but my impression is that the rules of evidence in our courts are a strong protection against the kind of random bs that seems part of the norm in this case. Examples (please tell me if any of this is wrong!)

That bra clasp would not be allowed in in the first place, because the police broke the chain of custody when they let it sit unguarded for six weeks.

The jurors would not hear one word from anybody about the "memoriales" during the trial, and if any of them happened to get caught reading about them in the papers there would be a mistrial.

 

[RWVBWL]

1 murderer or 2?

Elsewhere our own katy_did wrote, "While I'm here, another random inaccuracy: Nencini says on page 60 that an "extremely significant" fact, from the point of view of proving there were multiple attackers, is that no DNA was found beneath Meredith's nails (other than her own, obviously). Yet on page 195 of Massei's report, he says that the fact no DNA was found beneath Meredith's nails may have been because they were "very short" and therefore couldn't have scratched her attacker in any significant way. I guess Nencini didn't read Massei's report very carefully either."

I wonder what Nencini would have said had their been DNA under the Meredith's nails.

An interesting reply to Prof. Chris Halides post above
was presented here for you and I to reflect upon by JREF Member AngloLawyer:
From Amanda's appeal to Judge Massei:

"Hair formations were found under Meredith's fingernails.
Mitochondrial DNA exam should be done to determine who this belongs to. This test was not done.
This shows that Meredith broke free and grabbed her attacker's hair to try and stop the attack."


WHAT?


Greetings all,
I am on a skeptics forum, right?
I've presented this photograph before,

which most seem to believe is just a blonde fiber, from somewhere...

As is the 1 found near Miss Kercher's genitalia,
which, per Pro-Guilt author B.L.Nadeau wrote of to tell me and you about,
well Meredith's cootchie was of the Braziliian variety...

There shouldn't have been any hair found around there, right?

That photograph shows that the probable hair is indeed blonde like,
it does not look like the same color of Meredith's hair strands that was found in a bloody clump on the floor near her.

Nor does it look very dark,
though it is an individual hair strand.


If Amanda Knox's Defense lawyers went out on a limb and told the Massei Court that they believed that Miss Kercher had hair formations under her fingernails, why don't you skeptics here look differently at the probable blonde hair, and the changing dynamics of this brutal murder case that this would have to bring up?


If that is indeed a hair strand,
it is not Rudy Guede's!

Whose it is?
Whose hair formations were found under Miss Kercher's, long, fingernails,
per Dr. Stefanoni's original description which was then corrected
in description by a fellow scientific police officer there on the scene
as being medium long fingernails?
(page 49, Angel Face)


Did it belong to someone that ILE could not find in their records?
Or someone else that ILE knew of?

Ya know, I've never been to Perugia, Italy,
BUT I gotta keep in mind that a woman, whose son was studyin' in Perugia at the time of Meredith's horrible murder, who son was friends with Rudy Guede and who knew of Meredith from seein' her around town, reported very early on, waaay before any Court Trials convened, that her son was pulled in for questioning 4 days after Meredith was slain. As were his roommates to, IIRC...

This same woman tells that her son told her of RG and his 'friend'.

Who is the person whose hair it is that Meredith probably grabbed,
whose hair formations are probably underneath her fingernails,
so that she may yell out, to speak from the grave, so to say,
"that this is who is attacking me"?

And how did he arrive? On foot, bicycle, by car?
What did this person, along with Rudi G'day,
do when inside Meredith'sflat bedroom that night?

You know that many of us are very skeptical of the story that Albanian
Hekuran Kokomani presented to the media and then The Court. The guy even sold drugs, from what I gather. A drug dealer who goes to the cops of his own free will is also willing to participate in a major, media-hyped murder of the century trial? Err, OK!

Don't you skeptics here wonder why Hekuran Kokomani
arrived in Court undercover, ya know, wearin' a hoodie, hat and sunglasses?



I mean this in itself tells me the guy has something to hide, right?
What is it? It's almost makes it seem like the guy is an undercover narcotics cop
or something else of the like, right?

Who was he afraid to have seen him? Curatolo, who, per PM Mignini, is known as "The Hobo"?
The Tow truck driver, and the occupants of the broken down car,
that Koko say's in court that he spoke to that night?

From Frank Sfarzo,
Old Perugia Shock court reporting:
A tow truck comes forward, inside there's a man, a woman and a boy. They ask Hekuran directions for Cesena. He answers What time is it?. He doesn't understand their replay. Probably it was This one is crazy, let's go. How rude, so we will never know exactly what time it was."
Etc...

Look,
I've been to Court a few times, tickets and other bull^^^^,
AND never did I ever dress like this!!!
Would YOU?
DID You?


AngloLawyer?

Jackie - (The Unknown Lawyer,) - at PMF?
Did any of your clients or the witnesses for or against them
ever dress like Hekuran Kokoimani did so when he appeared in Court to testify in this sensational murder trial?!?


Come on folks!
Do you see why Magister, RandyN, Grinder, I, and others sometimes mention the car in the driveway and try to bring up a different scenario than what most believe is a 1 person murder and rape?

Even Amanda wants those minute hair samples tested!!!
Gosh, how easily this brutal murder and rape case could be solved,
IF an indepnedant specialist tested the hair formations found under Meredith's fingernails and that semen stain.
COME ON Italty!

Vibio, Machiavelli,
what do ya say???
Hmmmm...

It's insanely HOT here in L.A. right now,
I gotta get back to the beach.
See ya!
RW

 

[Desert Fox]

So let's leave the talk of angels and devils to the mad prosecutor of Perugia. And do what we can to reverse this injustice.

From everything I have read, they seem to be genuinely nice people.
It is not like Cameron Todd Willingham where I am defending somebody who seems to have been violent but not to have murdered his children.

Still, I prefer to set that aside when arguing for innocence.

I will say that sometimes those who are innocent have the hardest time because they do not know how to game the system.

 

[anglolawyer]

RandyW

Did you notice Kaosium's suggestion a while back that the hair in your photo might have been Meredith's? He out up a picture showing she had 'blond' highlights (they looked light brown to me). I thought it a reasonable idea. What did you make of it.

I always go to court looking like Kokomaniac btw.

 

[anglolawyer]

RandyW

Did you notice Kaosium's suggestion a while back that the hair in your photo might have been Meredith's? He put up a picture showing she had 'blond' highlights (they looked light brown to me). I thought it a reasonable idea. What did you make of it?

I always go to court looking like Kokomaniac btw.

 

[RWVBWL]

RandyW

Did you notice Kaosium's suggestion a while back that the hair in your photo might have been Meredith's? He out up a picture showing she had 'blond' highlights (they looked light brown to me). I thought it a reasonable idea. What did you make of it.

I always go to court looking like Kokomaniac btw.

Hi AngloLawyer,
Yep, I saw it, it was an interestin' point to ponder,
but as a guy whose had many days of my young life with sandy beach blonde hair,

much, much lighter than Meredith Kerecher's original hair color and her highlights were,
I did not think it was hers.

My hair,
as seen in the old pic above looks more like that hair found in Meredith's dying grasp than hers certainly does!


That hair in her hands grasp is not even straight, like her own...

Why was there another blonde hair found near Meredith's genitalia?
She pulled a couple of hairs off from her head and then what?
And she got some hair formations from her own head dug into and under her own fingernails?

Hmmmm, OK.
And Kooky-manio,
hidin' under a hoodie, a baseball cap, and wearin' sunglasses too,
was just havin' a bad hair day when he went to Court...


I gotta bail, it's sooooo hot right now in town,
but as I drive down the 10 freeway and onto Pacific Coast Highway in a few minutes, I'm gonna wonder of what Amanda Knox's defense lawyers were insinuating by making mention of the hair formations in that post of yours...

Have a great rest of the day!
RW

 

[Sonia]

CJ72:
I would argue that I don't take much stock in people saying that AK/RS are the nicest people you ever meet. This has been said about some of the most horrible people ever known.

I don't consider them either angels or devils

It has some weight but if the crime scene showed them to be guilty, I would accept that they are guilty.

I agree with this. I don't consider my position on the case to be "Pro Innocence." I consider it to be Pro Evidence. Show me evidence that proves their guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. I haven't seen that evidence to date.

 

[acbytesla]

Hi DF; If the crime scene showed them to be guilty, they would be maniacal killers, instead of innocent people framed for a brutal crime they had nothing to do with.

Their characters, and who they are as people, are every bit as much a fact, as their innocence or guilt.

I'm not asking you to agree with my perception here, so perhaps I spoke out of turn, but I'll tell you a story I heard from Steve Moore on LipTV.

In high school, Amanda was given an award for "compassion", by her high school teachers. The award didn't exist before they gave it to her, but her teachers felt she needed to be recognized for the way she treated her fellow students.

It's not the only story. Is it all part of some PR campaign of which I have become the latest dupe? There is a consistency to these stories, a ring of truth. I watched Amanda plead for her life before the Italian courts. I saw what I saw. Is that confirmation bias?

Rafaele, we need not discount the similar stories told about him by the people who know him best. We need only look at his actions. He could have achieved a lighter sentence by giving false testimony against Amanda. He didn't. That's not a story, that's an action. And its says something. To the guilter, it might mean, he's defending himself by sticking to a fake alibi. But I have no more words for them today.

That these two people should cross paths with what can only be described as a living walking nightmare, a literal madman in the guise of a public prosecutor, spinning insane sex crazed crime theories against anyone in sight; is like the best of people, crossing paths with the worst.

This story is Shakespearean, in a way. And I think that's why it has attracted the interest and commitment of so many people of accomplishment, talent, and integrity to it's cause.

So let's leave the talk of angels and devils to the mad prosecutor of Perugia. And do what we can to reverse this injustice.

Every actual fact I have read about Amanda shows to me that Amanda is probably a good person. Not that she is perfect, but a good person. I was impressed that her friend Madison set aside her own life and moved to Italy to support her friend. That showed me a lot about Madison and Amanda. There have been a lot of people that have stood up for her. That tells me a lot as well.

But if the evidence for her guilt was clear, then I'd have to think that this was all some kind of elaborate facade. But it is not clear. At least not for guilt. There has only been a single piece of evidence that has made me doubt her innocence and that was/is the bra clasp. But the clasp is totally unacceptable as a piece of evidence. There is a serious problem with chain of evidence custody and collection procedures.

What I see in Amanda is naivete, fear and quirky person that I think would have been a great friend when she was twenty. I'm worried that she is too damaged right now to see beyond her own troubles. I think it will be very interesting to see who she is in ten or twenty years.

 

[carbonjam72]

Footprints in murder room?

Every actual fact I have read about Amanda shows to me that Amanda is probably a good person. Not that she is perfect, but a good person. I was impressed that her friend Madison set aside her own life and moved to Italy to support her friend. That showed me a lot about Madison and Amanda. There have been a lot of people that have stood up for her. That tells me a lot as well.

But if the evidence for her guilt was clear, then I'd have to think that this was all some kind of elaborate facade. But it is not clear. At least not for guilt. There has only been a single piece of evidence that has made me doubt her innocence and that was/is the bra clasp. But the clasp is totally unacceptable as a piece of evidence. There is a serious problem with chain of evidence custody and collection procedures.

What I see in Amanda is naivete, fear and quirky person that I think would have been a great friend when she was twenty. I'm worried that she is too damaged right now to see beyond her own troubles. I think it will be very interesting to see who she is in ten or twenty years.

Seems to me we had agreed upthread on the absence of footprints as being a significant indication that no one but Guede was involved in the murder itself.

So if the bra clasp is all you have that worries you, what of the 2 or 3 other males identified on the clasp as well? When did the lack of confirming evidence to validate the supposed finding of DNA on the bra clasp stop being an issue for you?

We're they all in the tiny murder room, and all never touched the floor during this violent struggle? Or did Raf and the two unknown guys reach under Mez's shirt and touch her bra clasp, before shoving her into the room? Or, maybe it was a case of innocent transfer, and a result of contamination, or simply an unreliable result due to the manner in which the result was achieved? You tell me which seems more likely.

I'm of the opinion the private lives of these people is their own business, and I don't feel I have any right to intrude or make judgements as to what their lives are or will be like. We have no given right to protrude our 'unwanted gaze'. It's been said, 'adversity is the test of character'. In my book, they passed.

 

[carbonjam72]

Pro-evidence is pro-Innocence

I agree with this. I don't consider my position on the case to be "Pro Innocence." I consider it to be Pro Evidence. Show me evidence that proves their guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. I haven't seen that evidence to date.

Have you seen any evidence that shows innocence? I have. I'll bet you have too.

 

[christianahannah]

RandyW

Did you notice Kaosium's suggestion a while back that the hair in your photo might have been Meredith's? He out up a picture showing she had 'blond' highlights (they looked light brown to me). I thought it a reasonable idea. What did you make of it.

I always go to court looking like Kokomaniac btw.

I can't say who the hair might belong to, however, if you take one strand of hair, which this appears to be, and hold it to light or shine a light upon it, the strand can appear lighter than it actually is. I have very dark hair and can attest to this as being so (and I do not have blond highlights).

There were many hairs of various colors collected from the crime scene but as far as I can remember they yielded no results (I am not certain how many were tested).

Also, there were nail scrapings done from Meredith's fingers and my memory of that is they yielded no results (except maybe from Meredith).

 

[acbytesla]

Seems to me we had agreed upthread on the absence of footprints as being a significant indication that no one but Guede was involved in the murder itself.

So if the bra clasp is all you have that worries you, what of the 2 or 3 other males identified on the clasp as well? When did the lack of confirming evidence to validate the supposed finding of DNA on the bra clasp stop being an issue for you?

We're they all in the tiny murder room, and all never touched the floor during this violent struggle? Or did Raf and the two unknown guys reach under Mez's shirt and touch her bra clasp, before shoving her into the room? Or, maybe it was a case of innocent transfer, and a result of contamination, or simply an unreliable result due to the manner in which the result was achieved? You tell me which seems more likely.


I'm of the opinion the private lives of these people is their own business, and I don't feel I have any right to intrude or make judgements as to what their lives are or will be like. We have no given right to protrude our 'unwanted gaze'. It's been said, 'adversity is the test of character'. In my book, they passed.

As I said, the bra clasp is the only piece of evidence that has troubled me. Not that there isn't problems with it. It is more likely to be the result of contamination or downright framing. I find the bloody foot/shoe prints to be overwhelmingly convincing to me. That is what tells me that Rudy alone killed Meredith Kercher. Sure, there could have been an accomplice, but probably someone who wasn't in that bedroom A lookout possibly, which I still think is not probable.

As for their lives. I have done nothing ever to intrude upon that, nor will I ever. I'm convinced with their innocence. That is enough. But I think there is a natural curiosity to see how the story ends...even though I think we have no real right to know.

 

[RWVBWL]

I can't say who the hair might belong to, however, if you take one strand of hair, which this appears to be, and hold it to light or shine a light upon it, the strand can appear lighter than it actually is. I have very dark hair and can attest to this as being so (and I do not have blond highlights).

There were many hairs of various colors collected from the crime scene but as far as I can remember they yielded no results (I am not certain how many were tested).

Also, there were nail scrapings done from Meredith's fingers and my memory of that is they yielded no results (except maybe from Meredith).

Hiya Christianahannah!
Always good to read the thoughts of 1 of my fellow classmates,
the group who joined the campfire discussion here at The JREF back in April of 2010 when the Pro-Guilt, led by rapid-fire Fulcanelli, ran amok, with only Matthew Best, Dan O., and a few others to bring up serious rebuttals. Who else was it that also joined ,the campfire back then, Prof. Chris Halides, Rose Montague, LondonJohn, Bruce Fisher, Mary_H, Chris C, Malkmus, Magister and a few others? Good fun!


Anyways,
as you still, as your avatar shows,
have long hair similar in length to Miss Kercher's,
can you, or other gals who might be willin' to do,
do some testin' and yank a couple of hair strands out, very quickly,
to see how they pull out?

I can dig and appreciate your observations noted above:

if you take one strand of hair, which this appears to be, and hold it to light or shine a light upon it, the strand can appear lighter than it actually is. I have very dark hair and can attest to this as being so (and I do not have blond highlights).

But what I find odd is how wavvvy,
(err that's surfer slang there, friends!)
that the blonde lookin' hair strand that was photographed, tested and then apparently lost by ILE,
(seen in Miss Kercher's dying grasp),
is.

It looks nothing' like the style of Meredith's hair was when last photographed
and seen publicly the night before, on Halloween.
Thoughts from The Campfire?

Anyways,
I'm finally done editin'+uploading,
No Mas Computers!!!
Time for lunch and the beach, yea!
Take care all,
RW

 

[Bill Williams]

I find there are examples of pontification on both sides of this case in guise of sweeping statements being made by individuals, for example when people speak of “guilters” as though they are a recently discovered tribe of Homo Sapiens who have developed differently than pro-innocence folk; they think differently, probably look different, it’s easy to see how elitism or racism can spring up out of nowhere.

The behaviour you describes exist on both sides.

Truly I know what you mean. One of the more well known "guilters" keeps a personal blog. I found it because the guilter in question made a rare foray into the vile hatred of All things Amanda Knox on it, and it was picked up by a search engine.... the blog was mainly about all sorts of other subjects.

But if the Perugian murder stuff had been taken out, the two of us share fairly similar political views, and have been active in the same sorts of non-profit activities. If we were to ever meet, and avoid you-know-what, we'd have a lot to talk about.