Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Desert Fox]

One thing I think about the pro-guilt side is that they are not even willing to examine the pro innocent arguments instead dismissing them out of hand. I am quite willing to examine any pro-guilt arguments.
In a case where you are talking about taking somebody's freedom away for 20+ years, you better be sure you are right.

 

[carbonjam72]

Living in a guilter paradise.

One thing I think about the pro-guilt side is that they are not even willing to examine the pro innocent arguments instead dismissing them out of hand. I am quite willing to examine any pro-guilt arguments.
In a case where you are talking about taking somebody's freedom away for 20+ years, you better be sure you are right.

I actually think there are two kinds of guilters; those who think they're right, and those who know they're wrong.

The former are usually low information types. The latter are something else entirely. Mischievous, sadistic, criminal, loathsome.

I'm not sure there's any value in engaging with either. But I can see the benefit of watching the guiters get confronted with argument, and having to defend their positions. I just can't.

Fact is though, their positions are not defensible. So when cornered, they resort to ad hominem attacks, or just run away and bad mouth on their own enabler recovery sites.

It's a strange group for sure. Wonder what they'll do when innocence is formally recognized?

 

[MichaelB]

About the cars

http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/...-Coletta-Salsiccioli-Occhipint-Caccarelli.doc

page 86 - Maori asks Pasqualino Coletta's wife about the other car.

DEFENSE - Attorney Maori - It would seem that your car Toyota has stopped ...
INTERVENTION - President, there is opposition.
PRESIDENT - Where to stop?
HEADS - Where Now the red light, there more or less in the direction to the left, so we had to climb.
DEFENSE - Attorney Maori - For the minutes immediately after the stop in Via della Pergola ...
WITNESS - Yes, we had just started the climb. Our car was stopped by traffic island when it was , because the cars going up and down and we turned around.
DEFENSE - Attorney Maori - Very well . AND the car Citroen C4 of your friends ? WITNESS - He stopped, there is a small road ... after the release of the garage , just a little ' ...DEFENSE - Attorney Maori - The output is here at the bottom .
HEADS - More or less not stop there , where there is now a mouse, I do not remember exactly, but we watched another street and on the left was the entrance to the garage. We had stopped in the first place useful . Maybe more or less where the mouse , now I can not say exactly, but roughly there.
THE PRESIDENT - (inc. - overlapping voices) at the stop ...
WITNESS - Yes.

Owner of the second car Carmela Occhipinti

DEFENSE - Maori Lawyer - Lawyer Maori , Sollecito's defense . Good morning , ma'am.
HEADS - Good morning.
DEFENSE - Attorney Maori - We refer to the fact happened on 1 November 2007, when she , together with her ​​friends and Salsiccioli Coletta and her husband left the parking lot of St. Anthony. Can you tell us what happened ?
WITNESS - Yes, we were in Perugia on vacation, we went to a farm near Perugia, we went to dinner in Perugia , in fact, with my friends . Leaving the parking lot , their car is stopped .
DEFENSE - Attorney Maori - What kind of car was it?
WITNESS - A Avensis , a Toyota. So we stopped to see what it was.
DEFENSE - Attorney Maori - With the car?
WITNESS - A Citroen, a C4 Picasso.
DEFENSE - Attorney Maori - Color ?
HEADS - Blue I stayed in the car with the kids, while they were a little farther to see exactly why the machine does not ripartisse , why he had stopped. then we

 

[andreajo]

This is begging the question of why even the conclusion from his trials that Guede did not act alone should have any part whatsoever in the trials of Knox and Sollecito. It is also an argument from authority, in essence: who are you to criticize the judges? Among the many problems with that line of thinking is that it ignores how thin Massei's original argument was. It was based on Meredith's having taken karate lessons and conjecture of what she would have done when confronted with an intruder.

Karate is my only area of expertise relating to this case. The imagined effects that Meredith's training "would have had" is just one more example in this case of a creative musing being taken for truth.

 

[andreajo]

I actually think there are two kinds of guilters; those who think they're right, and those who know they're wrong.

The former are usually low information types. The latter are something else entirely. Mischievous, sadistic, criminal, loathsome.

I'm not sure there's any value in engaging with either. But I can see the benefit of watching the guiters get confronted with argument, and having to defend their positions. I just can't.

Fact is though, their positions are not defensible. So when cornered, they resort to ad hominem attacks, or just run away and bad mouth on their own enabler recovery sites.

It's a strange group for sure. Wonder what they'll do when innocence is formally recognized?

Some will keep on believing. Some will invent a logical "out" for themselves. Who knows?

Dissonance is felt when people are confronted with information that is inconsistent with their beliefs. If the dissonance is not reduced by changing one's belief, the dissonance can result in restoring consonance through misperception, rejection or refutation of the information, seeking support from others who share the beliefs, and attempting to persuade others.[4]

An early version of cognitive dissonance theory appeared in Leon Festinger's 1956 book, When Prophecy Fails. This book gives an account of the deepening of cult members' faith following the failure of a cult's prophecy that a UFO landing was imminent. The believers met at a pre-determined place and time, believing they alone would survive the Earth's destruction. The appointed time came and passed without incident. They faced acute cognitive dissonance: had they been the victim of a hoax? Had they donated their worldly possessions in vain? Most members chose to believe something less dissonant to resolve reality not meeting their expectations: they believed that the aliens had given Earth a second chance, and the group was now empowered to spread the word that earth-spoiling must stop. The group dramatically increased their proselytism despite the failed prophecy.[5]
​

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance#Belief_disconfirmation_paradigm

 

[acbytesla]

Some will keep on believing. Some will invent a logical "out" for themselves. Who knows?

Dissonance is felt when people are confronted with information that is inconsistent with their beliefs. If the dissonance is not reduced by changing one's belief, the dissonance can result in restoring consonance through misperception, rejection or refutation of the information, seeking support from others who share the beliefs, and attempting to persuade others.[4]

An early version of cognitive dissonance theory appeared in Leon Festinger's 1956 book, When Prophecy Fails. This book gives an account of the deepening of cult members' faith following the failure of a cult's prophecy that a UFO landing was imminent. The believers met at a pre-determined place and time, believing they alone would survive the Earth's destruction. The appointed time came and passed without incident. They faced acute cognitive dissonance: had they been the victim of a hoax? Had they donated their worldly possessions in vain? Most members chose to believe something less dissonant to resolve reality not meeting their expectations: they believed that the aliens had given Earth a second chance, and the group was now empowered to spread the word that earth-spoiling must stop. The group dramatically increased their proselytism despite the failed prophecy.[5]
​

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance#Belief_disconfirmation_paradigm

test

 

[Vibio]

This is begging the question of why even the conclusion from his trials that Guede did not act alone should have any part whatsoever in the trials of Knox and Sollecito. It is also an argument from authority, in essence: who are you to criticize the judges? Among the many problems with that line of thinking is that it ignores how thin Massei's original argument was. It was based on Meredith's having taken karate lessons and conjecture of what she would have done when confronted with an intruder.

That Massei's original argument was based on Meredith's having taken karate lessons and conjecture of what she would have done when confronted with an intruder, is just simply false.

Furthermore: the murderers AK & RS have a defense team. If, as you say, conclusions drawn from the Guede trial were used in the Knox trial, what were the statements by the defense team about this specific issue, about the supposed inherent unfairness of this? Could you please post them?

---

Also: I asked the following: I have never read a motivations report from a court in the US. What are they like? And how detailed are they?

I'd really like to know.

 

[Planigale]

Some forensic geneticists have a good working knowledge of forensic tests for blood. Dr. Elizabeth Johnson, Professor Bruce Budowle, Professor Greg Hampikian, and Professors Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti all come to mind.

It is basic chemistry, I am sure she is familiar with it and done it. It is just a bit odd as phrased, it implies she has frequently tested putative Luminol positive blood stains. Now she may well have been a forensic scientist who morphed into a geneticist, and so have previous field experience. I would just like to see the original in context not the interpretation given in the motivation.

 

[anglolawyer]

I must thank TJMK. I just stole this translation from their latest post, of Rita Ficarra's testimony.

And she was calm, she says [sic]: “Yes, yes, ok. let’s wait for the interpreter that way we avoid misunderstandings”, and that is what we did. The problem [is] that at a certain point, the problem, that is to say, the fact that at a certain point there was a colleague from the SCO [NdT: “Servizio centrale operativo”, Central operations service], who came from the place where they were listening to Raffaele Sollecito.

And then after that came the Deputy Commissioner Monica Napoleoni, who says to me that Sollecito had said different things, that in effect he was no longer giving an alibi to Amanda, and therefore to ask Amanda, since I was recording [NdT: in the sense “writing down what was said”] her - [or] I had started to report/write down - to ask what the latter had done that evening in particular, in other words, to focus on that evening more than on anything else: we were interested in the hour more or less preceeding ...

Ergon calls this theft, which is strange, because a translation should be the perfect truth, and that should be available to everyone. I believe this translation, and find it corroborates everything that makes sense of the interrogation, and how Amanda's life was stolen at this point.

Stop thief!

Where is this written record?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

karate

That Massei's original argument was based on Meredith's having taken karate lessons and conjecture of what she would have done when confronted with an intruder, is just simply false.

Furthermore: the murderers AK & RS have a defense team. If, as you say, conclusions drawn from the Guede trial were used in the Knox trial, what were the statements by the defense team about this specific issue, about the supposed inherent unfairness of this? Could you please post them?

Vibio,

From the Borsini-Belardi report: "Then, apart from the attempt to staunch the flow of blood from the wound and the proof that it was not he that held the knife that was compatible with the worst of the lesions, it should also be remembered that Guede was the only one, even if in a somewhat fanciful reconstruction of events, to indicate the perpetrators." If Guede were shown mitigation for identifying the others that participated (as indicated in this passage), then the distinction you tried to maintain collapses.

Karate is specifically mentioned several times on p. 369 of the English translation, and "Meredith's physical and personality characteristics" is mentioned on p. 370. There is a good deal of additional conjecture that ignores expert opinion in this section (that almost goes without saying when discussing the Massei report). As for how the defense will respond to Nencini's treading over fundamental principles of judicial fairness in bringing in Guede's trials, we will have to wait for the appeal documents and then see.

Personally I like the idea of motivations reports. What I think is highly questionable is that in them the presiding judge can make up his or her own theory of the crime, against which the defense has had no chance to respond. Whether it is better to have both or neither is an interesting question.

 

[Dan O.]

Where is this written record?

This is November 5 when their budget for recording interrogations ran out. They coulden't afford another pencil.

 

[Desert Fox]

Personally I like the idea of motivations reports. What I think is highly questionable is that in them the presiding judge can make up his or her own theory of the crime, against which the defense has had no chance to respond. Whether it is better to have both or neither is an interesting question.

To add to what you wrote, when a judge decides an issue instead of a jury, he does have to write down his/her conclusions and why they were made.
You can see that in such cases as the Prop 8 case in California and the Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District case.

One item is that they don't tend to be so lengthy. . .Judge Jones wrote a 139 page while Judge Walker wrote an 80 page one. Often times they refer to earlier cases as well and tend to be more information dense.

 

[anglolawyer]

This is November 5 when their budget for recording interrogations ran out. They coulden't afford another pencil.

That must be it. That record would have made interesting reading. Even Columbo can't get by without his notebook.

 

[Desert Fox]

That must be it. That record would have made interesting reading. Even Columbo can't get by without his notebook.

At least in the US, a defense attorney can look at all of the investigating detectives notes. If you don't write notes then they cannot do that.
Of course, odds are pretty good in such a case that the judge may dismiss the case but not in Italy.

 

[andreajo]

test

Test?

 

[Desert Fox]

That must be it. That record would have made interesting reading. Even Columbo can't get by without his notebook.

At least in the US, a defense attorney can look at all of the investigating detectives notes. If you don't write notes then they cannot do that.
Of course, odds are pretty good in such a case that the judge may dismiss the case but not in Italy.

 

[Diocletus]

Furthermore: the murderers AK & RS have a defense team. If, as you say, conclusions drawn from the Guede trial were used in the Knox trial, what were the statements by the defense team about this specific issue, about the supposed inherent unfairness of this? Could you please post them?

This issue is addressed in some detail in Hellmann, check it out.

Putting that aside, though, isn't it flat-out obvious that using somebody else's trial to adjudicate the defendant's guilt is wrong? It's barbaric, right?

 

[Samson]

Test?

I read your post Andreajo, and I have tried myself to understand cognitive dissonance.

 

[Supercalifragilistic]

Enough Already

Please try to stick to the case under discussion and avoid personal abuse. Are you denying Nencini found Rudy did not come in through the window because, as a professional burglar, he would have got in through the door? That is profoundly interesting. It means you are threatened by some obviously unsound, not to say ridiculous, reasoning by an Italian court that ruled for guilt. I can see why that would disturb the pro-guilt position, so much of which (as Vibio sarcastically affirmed today) hinges on the authority conferred by the 50 judges (or whatever the number is now) who found for guilt.

Tell you what. I'll do a deal with you - if you honestly say what it would mean to you if Nencini really has said that about Guede, I'll find the reference for you.

Stop your evasions - just find it.

 

[analemma]

Witch Doctor analyzes Knox-Coumo interview

Has anybody seen this:
"Amanda Knox Body Language on Chris Cuomo Interview Shows Odd Behavior and Lack of Genuine Emotion"
This Lillian Glass person analyzes the Knox-Coumo interview and declares her guilty because of facial expressisons, etc.
The author does not take into consideration the fact that Knox is probably traumatized by this seven years of persecution.
There are a swarm of Flies feeding on this article, CaliDeeva, Yves L., etc. Where do these people come from?
Analemma