[Merged] General Criticism of Islam/Islamophobia Topics

[Aepervius]

For years islamophobia and anti-semitism have very often been used as a "hammer" to simply ignore what the opposite side in a debate has to say. Criticize any israel policy => poof you are anti semitic. Criticize any specific point of an Islamic country and similarly you are flagged as islamophobe.

But in the last years I have seen a lot of forum conversation turning rapidly to "throw the whole islam out with the baby water they are all backward camel **********" type of racism come up whenever *any* moslem terrorist come up. I think that over generalization of a few over a whole culture can and should be qualified as islamophobia.

But then again this is a bad habit we have as "human", take a few element and then over generalize "an atheist did X , so all atheist are terrible monster" "a chritian did Y so all christian are liar non faithful hypocrite".

 

[Craig B]

For years islamophobia and anti-semitism have very often been used as a "hammer" to simply ignore what the opposite side in a debate has to say. Criticize any israel policy => poof you are anti semitic. Criticize any specific point of an Islamic country and similarly you are flagged as islamophobe.

But in the last years I have seen a lot of forum conversation turning rapidly to "throw the whole islam out with the baby water they are all backward camel **********" type of racism come up whenever *any* moslem terrorist come up. I think that over generalization of a few over a whole culture can and should be qualified as islamophobia.

But then again this is a bad habit we have as "human", take a few element and then over generalize "an atheist did X , so all atheist are terrible monster" "a chritian did Y so all christian are liar non faithful hypocrite".

I would reserve the term for people who are personally prejudiced against Muslims, or against the immigrant groups from which most Muslims, at least where I live, originate. People who think Islam is ridiculous, or that the majority of Muslim countries are misgoverned, are entitled to that view, which I share anyway.

 

[Cleon]

"A word created by fascists, and used by cowards, to manipulate morons." - Christopher Hitchens

Odd. I feel exactly the same way about the word "Islamofascist."

 

[Chaos]

Islamism is political Islam (actually default Islam really), Sharia law and whatnot. I would hope people are against that.

"Islamophobia" is simply ad hominem intended to silence critics of Islam.

""Anti-semitism" is simply ad hominem intended to silence critics of the Jews." - some anti-semite

Show me some actual critic of Islam, who voice some actual criticism, rather than the same old raving hate-mongers spew bigoted nonsense about innocent people.

 

[Dinwar]

Show me some actual critic of Islam, who voice some actual criticism, rather than the same old raving hate-mongers spew bigoted nonsense about innocent people.

A'isha.

To me, an Islamophobe is someone to whome the truth doesn't matter; the important thing to them is attacking Islam. There ARE valid criticisms of Islam, enough that making false accusations is completely unnecessary. However, Islamophobes seem to be willing to believe any nonsense that makes Islam look bad and reject anything that seems to defend it, regardless of the truth or falsehood of the statements in question. They abandon the principles of rational thought and rational discourse in order to attack their pet boogyman.

People who think Islam is ridiculous, or that the majority of Muslim countries are misgoverned, are entitled to that view, which I share anyway.

If you have examined Islam, understand what its guiding principles are, and reject them as silly, you are not an Islamophobe. If you examine how predominantly Muslim countries are run and object to those political institutions/methods, you are not an Islamophobe. If you make crap up, refuse to educate yourself, and attack anyone who offers counter-arguments to your nonsense, you are.

 

[A'isha]

Telling a Critic From an Islamophobe

 

[Humes fork]

Show me some actual critic of Islam, who voice some actual criticism, rather than the same old raving hate-mongers spew bigoted nonsense about innocent people.

Dawkins. Ibn Warraq. Freethought Mecca. Lots of ex-Muslims.

But the point is, I don't think any critic of Islam passes your criteria. You simply don't want there to be any criticism of Islam, full stop.

 

[A'isha]

Dawkins.

The guy who even Pakistani atheists call out as a bigot and hater, and who repeatedly approvingly cites the deranged Pat Condell?

Ibn Warraq.

The guy who wrote an article parroting Luxenberg's bizarre theories about the Qur'an when he obviously knew how false they were, and who told blatant lies about Feisal Abdul Rauf during the whole "ground zero mosque" controversy?

Freethought Mecca.

Which posts laughable nonsense like Luxenberg's garbage, the turgid and discredited Hagarism thesis, and hundred-year-old quotes from someone who considered it "humiliating to the human intellect" that anyone would study the Qur'an, but believed that the Bible is "more readable, more instructive, less infected by mysticism and declamation, less in bondage to hieratic prejudices, in a word, more human and secular...[and] contains the germ of all the great ideas of modern civilisation".

Lots of ex-Muslims.

Like the one who called out Hazrat Dawkins for his xenophobia and lack of critical thinking about Islam?

But the point is, I don't think any critic of Islam passes your criteria. You simply don't want there to be any criticism of Islam, full stop.

Look at the article I linked to above. Then look at the other articles posted on that site and the activism work that they do.

That's criticism of Islam, not the ******** that Dawkins and Hirsi Ali and Spencer and Geller and you spew.

 

[Chaos]

Dawkins. Ibn Warraq. Freethought Mecca. Lots of ex-Muslims.

But the point is, I don't think any critic of Islam passes your criteria. You simply don't want there to be any criticism of Islam, full stop.

Any critic of Islam, by definition, passes the criteria for being a critic of Islam. You, on the other hand, seem awfully insistent on passing the modern-day equivalent of blood libel level hatemongering off as "criticism".

 

[angrysoba]

Dawkins. Ibn Warraq. Freethought Mecca. Lots of ex-Muslims.

But the point is, I don't think any critic of Islam passes your criteria. You simply don't want there to be any criticism of Islam, full stop.

This is not really very constructive. And I should remind you that you were opposed to ad hominem attacks in one of your posts:

Islamism is political Islam (actually default Islam really), Sharia law and whatnot. I would hope people are against that.

"Islamophobia" is simply ad hominem intended to silence critics of Islam.

Yet, your quote uses a lot of ad hominem:

"A word created by fascists, and used by cowards, to manipulate morons." - Christopher Hitchens

Found in this conversation between Sam Harris and Ayaan Hirsi Ali, which is very interesting and you should read it.

 

[Chaos]

A'isha.

I was hoping that Humes Fork could name one, but thanks for replying anyway. Good reply, too.

To me, an Islamophobe is someone to whome the truth doesn't matter; the important thing to them is attacking Islam.

There´s also those who don´t care about the vehicle they use to attack Islam - I don´t think any of the "critics of Islam" in the "Islam is evil because FGM exists" thread actually give a wet fart about the victims of FGM, much less the non-Muslim victims of FGM.

If you have examined Islam, understand what its guiding principles are, and reject them as silly, you are not an Islamophobe. If you examine how predominantly Muslim countries are run and object to those political institutions/methods, you are not an Islamophobe. If you make crap up, refuse to educate yourself, and attack anyone who offers counter-arguments to your nonsense, you are.

Trouble is - name one Islamophobe who will admit to making crap up and refusing to educate themselves.

Telling a Critic From an Islamophobe

Are you secretly a Muslim or something? I mean, linking to articles explaining that a "critic of Islam" might actually be a liar and a bigoted hate-monger, that´s, like, pretty much blanket approval of FGM, child abuse and suicide bombing.

 

[Dinwar]

Trouble is - name one Islamophobe who will admit to making crap up and refusing to educate themselves.

True. It's a good method for distinguishing between Islamophobes and rational critics as a member of the audience, but Islamophobes tend to be blind to their own biases.

There´s also those who don´t care about the vehicle they use to attack Islam - I don´t think any of the "critics of Islam" in the "Islam is evil because FGM exists" thread actually give a wet fart about the victims of FGM, much less the non-Muslim victims of FGM.

The fact that this is true is depressing.

Any critic of Islam, by definition, passes the criteria for being a critic of Islam.

Provided they actually attack Islam. If they attack a made-up fiction they use in place of Islam, they really aren't a critic of anything.

 

[catsmate]

Odd. I feel exactly the same way about the word "Islamofascist."

Pithy.

A'isha.

To me, an Islamophobe is someone to whome the truth doesn't matter; the important thing to them is attacking Islam. There ARE valid criticisms of Islam, enough that making false accusations is completely unnecessary. However, Islamophobes seem to be willing to believe any nonsense that makes Islam look bad and reject anything that seems to defend it, regardless of the truth or falsehood of the statements in question. They abandon the principles of rational thought and rational discourse in order to attack their pet boogyman.

If you have examined Islam, understand what its guiding principles are, and reject them as silly, you are not an Islamophobe. If you examine how predominantly Muslim countries are run and object to those political institutions/methods, you are not an Islamophobe. If you make crap up, refuse to educate yourself, and attack anyone who offers counter-arguments to your nonsense, you are.

Well said.

But the point is, I don't think any critic of Islam passes your criteria. You simply don't want there to be any criticism of Islam, full stop.

Rubbish. Many of the criticisms of Islam, by yourself among many others, are reactive, illogical and untrue. Here they'll tend to be dissected like any other woo.

 

[ddt]

A'isha.

To me, an Islamophobe is someone to whome the truth doesn't matter; the important thing to them is attacking Islam. There ARE valid criticisms of Islam, enough that making false accusations is completely unnecessary. However, Islamophobes seem to be willing to believe any nonsense that makes Islam look bad and reject anything that seems to defend it, regardless of the truth or falsehood of the statements in question. They abandon the principles of rational thought and rational discourse in order to attack their pet boogyman.

Seconded.

Telling a Critic From an Islamophobe

Brandeis didn't know the body of work of Ayaan Hirsi Magan (let's at least use her proper name).

It's too bad that the video described here (page 9) is not available with English subtitling. It would be most instructive.

In the news program Nova (October 13, 2004) we could see how Hirsi Ali discussed the film Submission with four Muslim women in a shelter home. Hirsi Ali was now suddenly confronted with the presence of the actual women for whom she was supposedly the spokeswoman. Here the fictitious abused characters of Submission were juxtaposed with real abused persons. During the conversation, Hirsi Ali found herself confronted with anger, outrage, and disgust of the Muslim women who reacted to
her film. This culminated in a woman running out on the discussion for “since Hirsi Ali did not want a genuine dialogue there was no reason for her to stay.” At this moment Hirsi Ali made a dismissive gesture waving her hand to the woman and saying, “okay, goodbye then.” More than just uncovering an elitist or a defensive attitude, this gesture shows to what extent Hirsi Ali cannot account, or be accountable, for the stories of these women. As explicated in the televised discussion, in the eyes of these real abused women, Hirsi Ali is clearly not “one of them.”

 

[MontagK505]

"A word created by fascists, and used by cowards, to manipulate morons." - Christopher Hitchens

Found in this conversation between Sam Harris and Ayaan Hirsi Ali, which is very interesting and you should read it.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali: Some moderate Muslims hate me—and yes, that’s a strong word, but I think what they’ve said supports it—because I make them feel uncomfortable. The things I talk about put them in a state of dissonance that they can’t live with.

Does this sound familiar? Have you ever noted how some Christian fundamentalists talk about atheists?

 

[Tony]

It's interesting that you, Humes fork, and Sam Harris, don't see calling people "fascists", "cowards", and "morons" as silencing critcism.

Right. Because its true in this case. People like me not only think groups like Islamists, White supremacists, Christianists, gay-haters and assorted other similar haters should be called out and criticized for their hate, but so should those who defend and make excuses for them. People like you are offended by that.

Umm...Sorry?

 

[A'isha]

Right. Because its true in this case. People like me not only think groups like Islamists, White supremacists, Christianists, gay-haters and assorted other similar haters should be called out and criticized for their hate, but so should those who defend and make excuses for them. People like you are offended by that.

Umm...Sorry?

Except you aren't criticizing just Islamists.

 

[mijopaalmc]

Right. Because its true in this case. People like me not only think groups like Islamists, White supremacists, Christianists, gay-haters and assorted other similar haters should be called out and criticized for their hate, but so should those who defend and make excuses for them. People like you are offended by that.

Umm...Sorry?

Except there is a whole lot of hate-for-hate's-sake "criticism" of Islam promulgated by Harris and his denfenders in this thread, so their insistance that calling those they disagree with "facists", "cowards", and "morons" is merely "calling haters 'haters'" is an out-right fabrication of their own part.

 

[Humes fork]

The guy who even Pakistani atheists call out as a bigot and hater, and who repeatedly approvingly cites the deranged Pat Condell?

Where?

And Dawkins has repeatedly stated that agreement with Pat Condell on some issues doesn't necessarily mean he shares his every opinion.

The guy who wrote an article parroting Luxenberg's bizarre theories about the Qur'an when he obviously knew how false they were, and who told blatant lies about Feisal Abdul Rauf during the whole "ground zero mosque" controversy?

Ibn Warraq has tried to popularize several critical scholarship views of Islam. Nothing wrong with that. And who is Feisal Abdul Rauf?

Which posts laughable nonsense like Luxenberg's garbage, the turgid and discredited Hagarism thesis, and hundred-year-old quotes from someone who considered it "humiliating to the human intellect" that anyone would study the Qur'an, but believed that the Bible is "more readable, more instructive, less infected by mysticism and declamation, less in bondage to hieratic prejudices, in a word, more human and secular...[and] contains the germ of all the great ideas of modern civilisation".

They have posted several critical views of Islam from a variety of aspects and viewpoints. And you have to be really illogical if you think that one person they quoted alsio said some stupid thing (which they certainly don't agree with, as the site contains critiques of Christianity and Judaism as well), it invalidates the entire site.

Like the one who called out Hazrat Dawkins for his xenophobia and lack of critical thinking about Islam?

If you are thinking about her, then look who is in her banner...

Look at the article I linked to above. Then look at the other articles posted on that site and the activism work that they do.

That's criticism of Islam, not the ******** that Dawkins and Hirsi Ali and Spencer and Geller and you spew.

I have never posted anything from Spencer or Geller. These people are lunatics.

Dawkins and Ali however, are seriously criticizing Islam for the ultra-conservative values that Muhammad and his followers embodied, and which Islamists seek to impose on people today.

 

[Tony]

Except you aren't criticizing just Islamists.

Yes I am. I criticize those who use Islam (and Christianity) as an excuse to elevate themselves above others and as a tool to oppress others. I have nothing against Christians and Muslims who keep their faith personal and private. I am friends with some of them. Your problem is that you can't see the difference.