Split Thread Scorpion's Spiritualism

[PartSkeptic]

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Back when Teri Schiavo was in the news, the lack of faith healers pounding on the door of the hospital was remarkable.

Why would a psychic want to win the lottery?

The healers I am aware of work quietly and without fanfare. Those in white suits on TV - well, no doubt it helps the donations - and no doubt they claim that success and wealth is a sign that God rewards the faithful. In some matters I am AllSkeptic.

 

[turingtest]

Scorpion.

Just did some internet searches on the third eye. Interesting that ancient wisdom claimed that humans had a "third eye". It seems that the pineal gland has retinal cells, and can sense light and dark.

There were all sorts of descriptions as to what is associated with the "spiritual opening" of the third eye. Colors, shapes, emotions, human and not so human forms, other worlds, and a general increase in psychic abilities.

I got the impression that primary aim of many sites was to sell. Lots of words and awe and wonder. And some scary stuff. Enter the dungeon and experience the dragon.

With all the people I came across, the third eye was never really discussed. They simply saw spirits. Or they astral traveled. Or had NDEs. And there were a number were frauds who were out to impress others (and take their money).

I think that there might be something to this third eye, but I do not think it is something that can be turned on by training.

You might find that you experience visions because of auto-suggestion. Telling a hypnotized subject that there is a gorilla in the room is easy. Even afterward they have trouble with reality - saying that that DID see the gorilla.

Still, it is research of the kind that science promotes. The starting phase anyhow.

No, it really isn't; the starting phase- the very first principle- of any research of the kind that actual science would promote is that the proposition be falsifiable, that it be one that can be proven wrong. And that is a burden borne by the idea's proponent, one that Scorpion, with his reliance on anecdote as evidence, hasn't met. He can have all the faith he wants, but it's by no stretch of definition "science" at all.

 

[I Ratant]

Many people wish to win the lottery.
Me, I'd have no use for a million (or more) dollars, so I don't participate in the additional tax the lottery is.
Those televangelists more than likely have cars like one I saw over at the Mall.
Rolls Royce Silver Shadow. .. "Pastor 9" as a vanity plate. I bet the contributors to the purchase of that car are driving clapped-out Nissans and Chevys.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

Fascinating about the pineal gland.

While I just got some Wikipedia "learning" on the subject, there was this:

"Numerous spiritual philosophies contain the notion of an inner Third Eye that is related to the Ajna chakra and also the pineal gland, and to which is attributed significance in mystical awakening or enlightenment, clairvoyant perception, and higher states of consciousness. This idea occurs historically in ancient central and east Asia, and also in contemporary occult theories relating to yoga, Theosophy, Hinduism, Pagan religions, and New Age spiritual philosophies. There is no clinical evidence to support these assertions."

Still, an interesting topic I knew nothing about. Thanks PartSkeptic!

 

[wardenclyffe]

Why would a psychic want to win the lottery?The healers I am aware of work quietly and without fanfare. Those in white suits on TV - well, no doubt it helps the donations - and no doubt they claim that success and wealth is a sign that God rewards the faithful. In some matters I am AllSkeptic.

If psychics charge for their services, it strongly suggests that they want money. If I wanted money (and I do), I'd want to win the lottery. I don't want to lose money, so I don't play the lottery, but I'd still like to win it.

Ward

 

[Resume]

Why would a psychic want to win the lottery?

Why wouldn't they?

The healers I am aware of fake it work quietly and without fanfare.

Fixed.

 

[dlorde]

I can't help having a car-crash curiosity about what Scorpion will report.

Scorpion is uncertain that he really has a third eye, uncertain whether he can open it, uncertain that there is a spirit world, uncertain that his uncertain third eye can actually see the uncertain spirit world, and uncertain of how he could tell if he is seeing the spirit world he's uncertain of with the third eye he's uncertain of...

On the other hand, we know people regularly misinterpret what they see, or see things that aren't there. We know that sensory deprivation, e.g. shutting your eyes, will cause false perceptions due to noise in the system, and may eventually produce hallucinations. So sitting with eyes shut concentrating on vision for lengthy periods is very likely to result in seeing things (a really fun example is the Strange Face in the Mirror illusion, sometimes called the Bloody Mary illusion, or the Monster in the Mirror illusion, which involves staring at oneself in a mirror in a room so dark you can barely make out your face).

I'm curious to see how Scorpion, if, as is quite possible, he sees something, will reject the most probable explanation, that is based on well verified experiment, in favour of a fiction, the principles of which he admits to being uncertain of in every respect...

ETA - apologies for the convolution of that last sentence, I wasn't thinking clearly.

 

[steenkh]

Why would a psychic want to win the lottery?

If they do not want riches for themselves they could donate the winnings to a charity. Why don't they do that?

 

[PixyMisa]

Scorpion.

Just did some internet searches on the third eye. Interesting that ancient wisdom claimed that humans had a "third eye". It seems that the pineal gland has retinal cells, and can sense light and dark.

... If you're a tuatara (a species of New Zealand lizard). Or any of several varieties of extinct crustacean.

It's not true at all of humans, or of any other mammal. Indeed, the pineal gland in humans is buried at the centre of the brain, just above and behind the connection to the spinal cord. It's dark in there.

 

[Donn]

Hi Don, I read your post, I see your points.

I am assuming that success in seeing into higher planes, will bring with it evidence that they exist.

I guess you "see" them but you don't think them.

 

[Scorpion]

I can't help having a car-crash curiosity about what Scorpion will report.

I saw nothing at all last night. No spots or blobs, and I was plagued by doubts that I am capable of seeing into higher worlds. But I will continue
To give it half an hour a day for some weeks, or months.

 

[Donn]

.. plagued by doubts that I am capable of seeing into higher worlds .. weeks, or months.

I'll save you the angst: no one can.


You're welcome.

 

[The Shrike]

I saw nothing at all last night. No spots or blobs, and I was plagued by doubts that I am capable of seeing into higher worlds. But I will continue
To give it half an hour a day for some weeks, or months.

That's another danger of this mystic mumbo-jumbo: when people can't get it to work, their failure to do so can erode self esteem."Maybe I'm not 'pure of heart' enough . . . "

 

[PartSkeptic]

The psychics that I knew that had a reasonable amount of success, not 100% by any means, told me that they are not allowed (by a Higher Authority) to try to get riches for themselves or others.

The problem is that people think the rules for psychics and the rules are physics must be the same.

If you believe absolutely that only the material world exists - and insist on the proofs that work only in the material world, then you are totally isolated from any possibility that you are wrong.

When it comes to human behavior, we do not follow a set of rules. What makes one person better, may kill another.

I am still waiting for someone to tell me how a single cell can develop into an animal that can get up and run away from a predator within minutes of being born. How did that creature get the referential memories for its sight?

There is no way that such information is programmed into the DNA. If I am told scientists will find it, then I say do the math. Memory of a tree to avoid, memory of running zigzag, and so on - these require a huge amount of programmed memory brain cells.

Change a gene or two, and something big happens. How do you change a gene or two and the creature runs into the tree instead of a around it?

The memories are in the (reincarnated) souls that guides how the cells divide and arrange themselves, and ultimately the memories in the brain. Sure 99.999% is physics. It is the 0.001 percent that makes the difference. That is why the supernatural is so elusive. Just guessing as to the percentages, except that they are not 100% and 0%.

 

[Donn]

The psychics that I knew .. told me that they are not allowed (by a Higher Authority) to try to get riches for themselves or others.

And magicians are governed by the Ministry of Magic. It's good that so many fictional authorities exist to control so much fictional power.

If you believe absolutely that only the material world exists - and insist on the proofs that work only in the material world, then you are totally isolated from any possibility that you are wrong.

It does not require belief, only evidence. If these proofs work in some other world, then how can they convince me?

I am still waiting for someone to tell me how a single cell can develop into an animal that can get up and run away from a predator within minutes of being born. How did that creature get the referential memories for its sight?

You don't really want an answer to mess-up your incredulity. Preserve that righteous gaping jaw and that cavernous open mind at all costs.

There is no way that such information is programmed into the DNA. If I am told scientists will find it, then I say do the math. Memory of a tree to avoid, memory of running zigzag, and so on - these require a huge amount of programmed memory brain cells.

Strawman much?

Change a gene or two, and something big happens. How do you change a gene or two and the creature runs into the tree instead of a around it?

Make it develop no eyes.

The memories are in the (reincarnated) souls that guides how the cells divide and arrange themselves

I'd ask for evidence, but you'll only say it's happening in some other world.

It is the 0.001 percent that makes the difference. That is why the supernatural is so elusive. Just guessing as to the percentages, except that they are not 100% and 0%.

No.

ETA: I'm guessing your skeptic part is 0.001%.

 

[wardenclyffe]

The psychics that I knew that had a reasonable amount of success, not 100% by any means, told me that they are not allowed (by a Higher Authority) to try to get riches for themselves or others.
The problem is that people think the rules for psychics and the rules are physics must be the same.

If you believe absolutely that only the material world exists - and insist on the proofs that work only in the material world, then you are totally isolated from any possibility that you are wrong.

When it comes to human behavior, we do not follow a set of rules. What makes one person better, may kill another.

I am still waiting for someone to tell me how a single cell can develop into an animal that can get up and run away from a predator within minutes of being born. How did that creature get the referential memories for its sight?

There is no way that such information is programmed into the DNA. If I am told scientists will find it, then I say do the math. Memory of a tree to avoid, memory of running zigzag, and so on - these require a huge amount of programmed memory brain cells.

Change a gene or two, and something big happens. How do you change a gene or two and the creature runs into the tree instead of a around it?

The memories are in the (reincarnated) souls that guides how the cells divide and arrange themselves, and ultimately the memories in the brain. Sure 99.999% is physics. It is the 0.001 percent that makes the difference. That is why the supernatural is so elusive. Just guessing as to the percentages, except that they are not 100% and 0%.

However, in this case Scorpion did win the lottery psychically (according to Scorpion), so either you or Scorpion are wrong about this.

Ward

 

[Scorpion]

However, in this case Scorpion did win the lottery psychically (according to Scorpion), so either you or Scorpion are wrong about this.

Ward

Yes! somebody up there, in the spirit world, gave me a five number win in 1998 by giving me the numbers by telepathy. But they have never given me another win, and I have accepted that to get a big win by this method would be bad karma. I do not think that just any spirit can see into the future, so it had to be someone particularly capable. Not just one of my departed relatives. So I think I was given a kind of special gift that was just enough money for me to purchase a good computer. It also gave me some personal evidence that the spirit world exist, and can get in touch with me if they want.
But I do not think it will happen again.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

I am still waiting for someone to tell me how a single cell can develop into an animal that can get up and run away from a predator within minutes of being born. How did that creature get the referential memories for its sight?

Your wait is over: Evolution - via natural selection.

There is no way that such information is programmed into the DNA.

Sorry, your personal incredulity or lack of knowledge does not an argument make.

"Evolution is cleverer than you are" - Orgel's Second Rule

 

[Daylightstar]

... I was plagued by doubts ...

I saw nothing at all last night. No spots or blobs, and I was plagued by doubts that I am capable of seeing into higher worlds. But I will continue
To give it half an hour a day for some weeks, or months.[/QUOTE]"]No, you were not.

... higher worlds. ...

Which can not be shown to exist.

... But I will continue
To give it half an hour a day for some weeks, or months.

You most certainly will.
It'll be many months, if not longer. In the mean time you will talk about your claimed doubts while at the same time demonstrating your certainty about your belief by talking about it endlessly.

 

[Daylightstar]

Yes! somebody up there, in the spirit world, gave me a five number win in 1998 by giving me the numbers by telepathy. But they have never given me another win, and I have accepted that to get a big win by this method would be bad karma. I do not think that just any spirit can see into the future, so it had to be someone particularly capable. Not just one of my departed relatives. So I think I was given a kind of special gift that was just enough money for me to purchase a good computer. It also gave me some personal evidence that the spirit world exist, and can get in touch with me if they want.
But I do not think it will happen again.

Yep, no doubts.