Botched Execution, Again

[Wolrab]

The assumption is that the accused and condemned will sit still and cooperate with placement of said PICC line. It is my understanding, likewise, that they placed an otherwise equally-effective central venous line in his grown prior to this execution, and that failed as well.

Again, what should've been done is the administration of intramuscular ketamine. You don't need an IV for this. This would have rendered him completely amnestic and cooperative. Then you could've started two peripheral IVs and carried out the execution, all while the witness onlookers would've been satisfied that this wasn't "cruel or unusual".

Unfortunately, the execution protocols are riddled with unnecessary regulatory handcuffs. What is common, accepted, and routine practice in the medical world does not translate to the system of justice we have in the U.S.

~Dr. Imago

Thank you for that. It does seem stupid that a man in custody can't be restrained by any means necessary to insert a central line and then be restrained to keep it in place.

 

[Wolrab]

By saying that, you are no better human being than the murderer in question. It's one thing to support capital punishment. (I used to, and still remember why I did.) But comments like this aren't arguments for the death penalty. They are arguments for revenge. What purpose does it serve to lower yourself to the level of that which you despise?

Here is what I said:

I am disgusted at the sympathy shown to a sadistic murderer. If the problem with the execution was a blown vein, give the next one a PICC and verify its placement.The suffering of this one scumbag made any subsequent executions less unpleasant.
Did this asshat give any thought to ensuring his victim's comfort white raping then burying her? Too bad he suffered but actions have consequences.

He raped, murdered, and buried his victim alive. I totally see how I am no better than him it.

 

[BardKesnit]

He raped, murdered, and buried his victim alive. I totally see how I am no better than him it.

You support torture of a human being. And yes, he is a human being. The fact that you do not see that goes to my point.

 

[shuize]

And ? What's your reasoning, here ?

Is it really so difficult to follow? I posted that I agreed with Caper's earlier point: Once one hears what he did to Stephanie Neiman, it's hard to feel very bad that his execution was not 100% pain-free.

 

[Belz...]

Once one hears what he did to Stephanie Neiman, it's hard to feel very bad that his execution was not 100% pain-free.

You are assuming that feelings should have anything to do with this.

The problem I have with executions, besides the error-prone process that leads to them and the fact that I am not comfortable with the idea, is that it's a double standard; not because a society doesn't have the right to revoke one's life, but because it's borne out of the perceived need for revenge: someone hurt us, so someone will pay. We need to feel good about this situation again, and we still think that hurting or killing someone will do the trick. It's antiquated reasoning, and has no place in a modern society, where we know better than to think that it's a deterrent, or that it will actually make the victims or their loved ones feel better. The double standard is that we expect each other to act rationally, but we have laws which allow society as a whole to act out of rage. That's completely ridiculous, to me.

 

[Wolrab]

You support torture of a human being. And yes, he is a human being. The fact that you do not see that goes to my point.

He lost his human card when he raped and murdered, that is why he was locked up and condemned to death.
I'm sure anything I say short of agreeing with you would bolster your point in your mind.

 

[xjx388]

You are assuming that feelings should have anything to do with this.

The problem I have with executions, besides the error-prone process that leads to them and the fact that I am not comfortable with the idea, is that it's a double standard; not because a society doesn't have the right to revoke one's life, but because it's borne out of the perceived need for revenge: someone hurt us, so someone will pay. We need to feel good about this situation again, and we still think that hurting or killing someone will do the trick. It's antiquated reasoning, and has no place in a modern society, where we know better than to think that it's a deterrent, or that it will actually make the victims or their loved ones feel better. The double standard is that we expect each other to act rationally, but we have laws which allow society as a whole to act out of rage. That's completely ridiculous, to me.

I understand where you are coming from. If people were purely rational beings what you say would make a lot of sense. But we aren't; we are emotional creatures. There is a basic human need for retribution and a civilized society will find a way to satisfy that need without breaking down the barriers that keep society intact. Execution carried out by the State after due process in the justice system is an excellent way of doing just that.

 

[I Ratant]

... perceived need for revenge: someone hurt us, so someone will pay. ...

.
It isn't "revenge" that keeps us safe from smallpox, it's the systematic elimination of the disease where it occurred and the universal vaccination program.
Eliminating a violent person from our society is not "revenge", it's making life for everyone safer!
That's what prisons do.
The death penalty removes those who are not curable by any other means.
Where it possible to benignly cure violent behavior the death penalty would be history.
It is a goal worth attaining, finding the causes and the cure.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I understand where you are coming from. If people were purely rational beings what you say would make a lot of sense. But we aren't; we are emotional creatures. There is a basic human need for retribution and a civilized society will find a way to satisfy that need without breaking down the barriers that keep society intact. Execution carried out by the State after due process in the justice system is an excellent way of doing just that.

But how does this "just so" theory deal with societies that don't have executions or punishment-focus?

 

[Belz...]

If people were purely rational beings what you say would make a lot of sense. But we aren't; we are emotional creatures.

I'm fully aware of that, but while I understand that emotion is part of human life, and that it's a necessary one at that, it doesn't follow that our decisions, as a society or even as individuals, must be dominated by emotion, even if it serves emotion in the end.

There is a basic human need for retribution

There is also a basic human need for violence and rape, but I don't think the naturalistic argument is very good, especially in this instance.

 

[Belz...]

It isn't "revenge" that keeps us safe from smallpox, it's the systematic elimination of the disease where it occurred and the universal vaccination program.
Eliminating a violent person from our society is not "revenge", it's making life for everyone safer!
That's what prisons do.
The death penalty removes those who are not curable by any other means.
Where it possible to benignly cure violent behavior the death penalty would be history.
It is a goal worth attaining, finding the causes and the cure.

An interesting, if flawed, analogy.

The elimination of disease is entirely justified in protecting millions of people from death. The killing of an individual carries no such benefit. In addition, are you seriously suggesting that, as a whole, people in favour of the death penalty are being dispassionate about this issue, and that their desire to see the guilty punished isn't the major contributing factor ?

 

[I Ratant]

The killing of a killer prevents -that- killer from doing it again.
You are aware that many killers do it more than once?
And the rapist.
You are aware that many rapists do it more than once?
Speaking of which, would you open you home to the multiple rapist being considered for release as mentioned earlier in this thread?
Why, or why not?
That societies are plagued with these things is a problem society has been deficient in correcting for 1000s of years.

 

[jimbob]

I have no problem with life imprisonment, which achieves that and at a lower cost.

 

[I Ratant]

So the only deterrent to committing a vicious crime (or crimes) is to become a ward of the state?
Free room and board and health care forever.
Oh the humanity!

 

[jimbob]

So the only deterrent to committing a vicious crime (or crimes) is to become a ward of the state?
Free room and board and health care forever.
Oh the humanity!

Personally, I wouldn't want to spend 30-or 40-years in prison.

There have been enough high-profile cases in the UK which have later been found to be complete travesties.

"It is better that ten murderers spend the rest of their life behind bars than one innocent man hang." It is hardly letting someone go.

 

[Belz...]

The killing of a killer prevents -that- killer from doing it again.
You are aware that many killers do it more than once?
And the rapist.
You are aware that many rapists do it more than once?

Yes, and ? We are talking about orders of magnitude away from smallpox.

Speaking of which, would you open you home to the multiple rapist being considered for release as mentioned earlier in this thread?

Relevance ?

That societies are plagued with these things is a problem society has been deficient in correcting for 1000s of years.

...which the death penalty has not solved.

So the only deterrent to committing a vicious crime (or crimes) is to become a ward of the state?
Free room and board and health care forever.
Oh the humanity!

I'm sure many people commit crimes just for the opportunity to live the high life in prison.

 

[I Ratant]

Yes, and ? We are talking about orders of magnitude away from smallpox.



Relevance ?

.
Just over your head... Whoooosh!

 

[wasapi]

I'm not saying I'm right... but it's funny how once you read what he actually did...... how little you care that he suffered a bit.

This!!!

 

[Belz...]

Just over your head... Whoooosh!

That sounds like not an explanation, which leads me to believe that it was, in fact, irrelevant.

 

[BardKesnit]

He lost his human card when he raped and murdered,

Except he didn't. Unless you can explain how he changed his species.

.
It isn't "revenge" that keeps us safe from smallpox, it's the systematic elimination of the disease where it occurred and the universal vaccination program.
Eliminating a violent person from our society is not "revenge", it's making life for everyone safer!

Elimination does not have to equal execution. Putting someone in prison for life without the chance of parole also removes that person from society. And it's cheaper.