Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Diocletus]

fair point but not quite as clear cut

https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150169643774261

a locksmith and her six year old son.

she led the way though they were right behind her coming up stairs. RG reaction was calm and he accepted he'd been caught. They called the police so the 'two men' were not seen as much security.

Its still a big stretch from how he reacted here to turning into a murderous necrophiliac

You do have a point. Personally, I think that he would have cut a couple or girls first, then maybe killed at least one, before he raped and killed. That said, I'm not really sure how and when one becomes a murderous necrophiliac, so who knows.

 

[RandyN]

There is a fine line of causing someone serious issues or just an opinion.
I dont know, Italy, at least Perugia and Florence silenced Frank's blog....yet Barbie and Andrea can slander away without accountability?

and who leaks all this police info to the media everytime there is some attention to the case?

Has a communistic taste, with an Italian flavor.

Barbie portrays herself as a journalist. And when she reports...that which she has to understand by now, what are deceptive lies then she should be held accountable to at least reveal her lies to the same public and get her to stop or to maybe actually recover damages.

I am all for free press. But what is written should be verifiable and true. And when it is provably not true and at the same time critically harmful to an ongoing murder case and the wrongful prosecution of innocent defendants then those harmed should bring a case against her if they so chose.

Barbie is sleazy enough to be considered an average tabloid trashmaster and yet she gets published in Newsweek (are they still around since she and Tina brought the giant down? )

I don't get the impression Barbie is just writing opinion pieces.

Always ignoring the tabloids allows the weak minded (like the Italian judicial officials) to gain incorrect information which they then seem to bring into court and rule on as facts.

I don't understand why Frank went silent. I cant imagine that Italy has that much power. The internet is huge and alias are simple. Frank allowed himself to be eaten up mostly by Frank...Too bad really because I enjoyed his take on things.

 

[cuki777]

cuki pbs #78

You do have a point. Personally, I think that he would have cut a couple or girls first, then maybe killed at least one, before he raped and killed. That said, I'm not really sure how and when one becomes a murderous necrophiliac, so who knows.

Don't know if you're being partially or totally sarcastic but I'll carry on the dialogue as though it was an adult conversation. RGs behaviour ON THE NIGHT OF MURDER was similar to nursery in that he was acting like he was 'at home' pooping and swigging juice. His own words acknowledge he lusted after AK so a zero to murderous necrophiliac would have more traction. I dont believe his 'date' claim with MK so the mood switch was very dramatic if TOD was as early as many here believe - why not the calmness as the nursery - he knew the guys downstairs he could have made up any BS he wanted to justify his presence. As a point aside, I take it you accept that his knife/the murder weapon was never found?

 

[JREF2010]

Barbie portrays herself as a journalist. And when she reports...that which she has to understand by now, what are deceptive lies then she should be held accountable to at least reveal her lies to the same public and get her to stop or to maybe actually recover damages.

I am all for free press. But what is written should be verifiable and true. And when it is provably not true and at the same time critically harmful to an ongoing murder case and the wrongful prosecution of innocent defendants then those harmed should bring a case against her if they so chose.

Barbie is sleazy enough to be considered an average tabloid trashmaster and yet she gets published in Newsweek (are they still around since she and Tina brought the giant down? )

I don't get the impression Barbie is just writing opinion pieces.

Always ignoring the tabloids allows the weak minded (like the Italian judicial officials) to gain incorrect information which they then seem to bring into court and rule on as facts.

I don't understand why Frank went silent. I cant imagine that Italy has that much power. The internet is huge and alias are simple. Frank allowed himself to be eaten up mostly by Frank...Too bad really because I enjoyed his take on things.

Perugia Shock was taken down by Judges in Florence, right?
Perugia persecution team lobbied for it.

I agree with being able to sue

 

[acbytesla]

fair point but not quite as clear cut

https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150169643774261

a locksmith and her six year old son.

she led the way though they were right behind her coming up stairs. RG reaction was calm and he accepted he'd been caught. They called the police so the 'two men' were not seen as much security.

Its still a big stretch from how he reacted here to turning into a murderous necrophiliac

Never the less, it was 3 people or 2 and a quarter in the middle of the day as opposed to a single woman in the middle of the night. Also it is a fact that Rudy sexually assaulted Meredith given that Rudy's DNA was found through a vaginal swab of Meredith. And given the blood evidence it is very clear that he was a significant party to the murder.

With all due respect, I don't see how and why you think that just because Rudy acted differently when surprised by middle aged woman and an adult man as opposed to a twenty year old girl alone who knew him on sight means that he would have reacted exactly the same. Maybe the locksmith was a large man.. And the knife that they discovered Rudy with was in his backpack, maybe not readily accessible to Rudy.

The fact is that Rudy was in a situation that strongly suggests burglary whether he was charged with that or not. That he was caught with stolen items from a burglary that took place close to his home in Perugia.

Tell me cuki, are you suggesting that Rudy didn't sexually assault Meredith? That he didn't kill Meredith?

I have never understood how anyone can look at the many footprints of Rudy in Meredith's blood, Rudy's palm print in Meredith's blood and the DNA samples of Rudy in that room and somehow that they can't fine a trace of Amanda in that room can somehow excuse Rudy and blame Amanda?

 

[Desert Fox]

Don't know if you're being partially or totally sarcastic but I'll carry on the dialogue as though it was an adult conversation. RGs behaviour ON THE NIGHT OF MURDER was similar to nursery in that he was acting like he was 'at home' pooping and swigging juice. His own words acknowledge he lusted after AK so a zero to murderous necrophiliac would have more traction. I dont believe his 'date' claim with MK so the mood switch was very dramatic if TOD was as early as many here believe - why not the calmness as the nursery - he knew the guys downstairs he could have made up any BS he wanted to justify his presence. As a point aside, I take it you accept that his knife/the murder weapon was never found?

Years ago, I read a book of interviews of police detectives. There was a lot of BS in the book such as Satanic Ritual Abuse so hard to know how much to believe. SRA has been pretty much discredited.

In the book though, detectives talk about the first murder / rape.
As often as not, there is an attempt to knock out the woman, not murder her. Often as well, the first penetration is with an object or with a finger, not a penis. Not many start with attacks that are just cutting. Edit: Believe I remember reading that masturbating on or near the body is common.

I think I might still have the book so will look for it later on. I would argue that this incident has a sexual component makes it different than you previous case. He did see an attractive woman.

 

[cuki777]

cuki pbs #78

Never the less, it was 3 people or 2 and a quarter in the middle of the day as opposed to a single woman in the middle of the night. Also it is a fact that Rudy sexually assaulted Meredith given that Rudy's DNA was found through a vaginal swab of Meredith. And given the blood evidence it is very clear that he was a significant party to the murder.

With all due respect, I don't see how and why you think that just because Rudy didn't act differently when surprised by middle aged woman and an adult man as opposed to a twenty year old girl alone who knew him on sight means that he would have reacted exactly the same. Maybe the locksmith was a large man.. And the knife that they discovered Rudy with was in his backpack, maybe not readily accessible to Rudy.

The fact is that Rudy was in a situation that strongly suggests burglary whether he was charged with that or not. That he was caught with stolen items from a burglary that took place close to his home in Perugia.

Tell me cuki, are you suggesting that Rudy didn't sexually assault Meredith? That he didn't kill Meredith?

I have never understood how anyone can look at the many footprints of Rudy in Meredith's blood, Rudy's palm print in Meredith's blood and the DNA samples of Rudy in that room and somehow that they can't fine a trace of Amanda in that room can somehow excuse Rudy and blame Amanda?

I totally think RG sexually assaulted MK and I dont believe AK or RS were in the room (lack of DNA and I believe Curatolo gives them a decent alibi which means there is no credible timeline) but I dont believe RG went from being a casual burglar to a murderous necrophiliac without a more ruthless accomplice being present. There is definitely a reasonable case for more than one assailant. HK was in the vicinity he fled the country and was subsequently apprehended for badly beating his girlfriend as well as drug dealing. In her memoir AK says at one point in court it dawned on her with horror that there could have been more than one attacker (she also shouted 'those bastards!' (plural) when she heard what had happened to MK)

 

[Samson]

No I didn't, but you are right on. It is the nursery break in that connects Rudy to the law office and his next door neighbor. Without Rudy being caught there, the only thing we would know about is Christian Tremantano.

The evidence of these other crimes I would think would be compelling to everyone as opposed to the anecdotal evidence of the burglary being "staged". You would think the cops would have said..."wait a minute, why are we looking at the burglary being staged" when it's pretty damn clear that Rudy is a dangerous burglar?"

I guess it is worth labouring the point that the staging was determined by
Mignini immediately. "Hmm glass on top of clothes, nothing taken." Let's see, so a real burglar ransacks and throws the clothes on the broken glass, and takes things.
Next we have Lumumba as a third implausible candidate, (Amanda and Raffaele have a key), so everything is rational.

Now their fate is sealed. Three wrongly in jail, after MOF, 22 wrongly in jail, all jailed by one ambitious man. The three will be the straw that breaks the camel's back, ruin his career, and Mignini transforms into a Machiavellian character.

Guede becomes a pawn in this new world.

I believe all this as the only plausible explanation for such evil.

 

[cuki777]

cuji pbs #79

Years ago, I read a book of interviews of police detectives. There was a lot of BS in the book such as Satanic Ritual Abuse so hard to know how much to believe. SRA has been pretty much discredited.

In the book though, detectives talk about the first murder / rape.
As often as not, there is an attempt to knock out the woman, not murder her. Often as well, the first penetration is with an object or with a finger, not a penis. Not many start with attacks that are just cutting. Edit: Believe I remember reading that masturbating on or near the body is common.

I think I might still have the book so will look for it later on. I would argue that this incident has a sexual component makes it different than you previous case. He did see an attractive woman.

The nursery teacher was not unattractive for the record. Thanks for this contribution though. To make RGs behaviour fit the specific evidence he had to turn into a complete monster. This is possible - for anyone - but given the whole picture there is definitely reasonable doubt that RG was a murderous necrophiliac.

 

[Diocletus]

Don't know if you're being partially or totally sarcastic but I'll carry on the dialogue as though it was an adult conversation. RGs behaviour ON THE NIGHT OF MURDER was similar to nursery in that he was acting like he was 'at home' pooping and swigging juice. His own words acknowledge he lusted after AK so a zero to murderous necrophiliac would have more traction. I dont believe his 'date' claim with MK so the mood switch was very dramatic if TOD was as early as many here believe - why not the calmness as the nursery - he knew the guys downstairs he could have made up any BS he wanted to justify his presence. As a point aside, I take it you accept that his knife/the murder weapon was never found?

What BS would justify breaking in?

Yes, knife never found.

 

[carbonjam72]

Rudy's behavior at prior break-ins -

Never the less, it was 3 people or 2 and a quarter in the middle of the day as opposed to a single woman in the middle of the night. Also it is a fact that Rudy sexually assaulted Meredith given that Rudy's DNA was found through a vaginal swab of Meredith. And given the blood evidence it is very clear that he was a significant party to the murder.

With all due respect, I don't see how and why you think that just because Rudy didn't act differently when surprised by middle aged woman and an adult man as opposed to a twenty year old girl alone who knew him on sight means that he would have reacted exactly the same. Maybe the locksmith was a large man.. And the knife that they discovered Rudy with was in his backpack, maybe not readily accessible to Rudy.

The fact is that Rudy was in a situation that strongly suggests burglary whether he was charged with that or not. That he was caught with stolen items from a burglary that took place close to his home in Perugia.

Tell me cuki, are you suggesting that Rudy didn't sexually assault Meredith? That he didn't kill Meredith?

I have never understood how anyone can look at the many footprints of Rudy in Meredith's blood, Rudy's palm print in Meredith's blood and the DNA samples of Rudy in that room and somehow that they can't fine a trace of Amanda in that room can somehow excuse Rudy and blame Amanda?

Also, its worth mentioning, that in Milan, they walked in on Rudy. In Meredith's case, Rudy like had the advantage of surprise, and his knife at the ready. There were shallow knife marks on the left side of Meredith's throat that I've seen attributed to 'warning' or 'controlling marks', not indicative of an immediate intent to kill or cause injury, and a few defensive wounds on the hands. Meredith's resistance and panic could account for the escalation in violence and assault.

Also, there's no allegation of necrophilia that I've seen. Only that Rudy first inflicted a mortal wound on Meredith, and then as she lay dying in her own blood, he took the opportunity sexually position and assault her, and masturbate over her. No indication that her distress was erotic to Rudy, only that it made her more docile and posable for his purposes. The suggestion his contact with meredith was consensual is the last insult that can be added to Rudy's narrative.

Does anyone really want to try to get into Rudy Guede's mindset and try to understand what he was experiencing? Better he's left to the psychiatric scientists to study and analyze so as to prevent him hurting others, and to assess the nature of his illness to possibly recognize and treat others before they commit crimes. It's a dirty job best left to experts.

If he weren't trying to destroy the lives of two more young innocent students, would anyone ever have heard of Rudy Guede? Just knowing his name is a burden.

 

[acbytesla]

Don't know if you're being partially or totally sarcastic but I'll carry on the dialogue as though it was an adult conversation. RGs behaviour ON THE NIGHT OF MURDER was similar to nursery in that he was acting like he was 'at home' pooping and swigging juice. His own words acknowledge he lusted after AK so a zero to murderous necrophiliac would have more traction. I dont believe his 'date' claim with MK so the mood switch was very dramatic if TOD was as early as many here believe - why not the calmness as the nursery - he knew the guys downstairs he could have made up any BS he wanted to justify his presence. As a point aside, I take it you accept that his knife/the murder weapon was never found?

Really? You think Rudy could have talked his way out of being persona non grata with the boys downstairs who have said that they barely knew him outside of the basketball court? That being caught upstairs in Giacomo's girlfriend's flat upstairs with the window broken..that he would have come up with some innocent way to explain himself?

I also don't believe he didn't have a date with MK. At least we agree with that.

But that doesn't mean he didn't find her attractive to some degree. Just that he had previous expressed an interest in Amanda really is insignificant..especially when you consider who he expressed that to..the boys downstairs. It certainly would have been a violation of the bro code to express your interest in a girl to the the your friend who was dating her!!!

I also agree that the murder weapon was never found..or at least identified.

 

[cuki777]

cuki pbs #80

Never the less, it was 3 people or 2 and a quarter in the middle of the day as opposed to a single woman in the middle of the night. Also it is a fact that Rudy sexually assaulted Meredith given that Rudy's DNA was found through a vaginal swab of Meredith. And given the blood evidence it is very clear that he was a significant party to the murder.

With all due respect, I don't see how and why you think that just because Rudy acted differently when surprised by middle aged woman and an adult man as opposed to a twenty year old girl alone who knew him on sight means that he would have reacted exactly the same. Maybe the locksmith was a large man.. And the knife that they discovered Rudy with was in his backpack, maybe not readily accessible to Rudy.

The fact is that Rudy was in a situation that strongly suggests burglary whether he was charged with that or not. That he was caught with stolen items from a burglary that took place close to his home in Perugia.

Tell me cuki, are you suggesting that Rudy didn't sexually assault Meredith? That he didn't kill Meredith?

I have never understood how anyone can look at the many footprints of Rudy in Meredith's blood, Rudy's palm print in Meredith's blood and the DNA samples of Rudy in that room and somehow that they can't fine a trace of Amanda in that room can somehow excuse Rudy and blame Amanda?

You have previously stated your anxiety re RG being released soon. Given the scenario whereby RG reacts like a complete monster to very little provocation you would be right to be anxious. So for that reason I hope I'm right that there were other elements at play on 1 nov 2007

 

[codyjuneau]

He's not really familiar with this case Samson, But he and the literature will tell you that a common burglary tactic is breaking in through a window. That burglars will do it for two reasons. One to gain entry and two to make just loud enough noise to startle the people inside. If no one responds, they know that no one is home, if they do, they move on to another target.

To be frank, gaining entry by window breaking doesn't really single out a burglar, I also don't think that the rock throwing is really all that significant. People will use whatever is available. I just don't think you can ignore the "cluster" of burglaries in and around his apartment in such a short time period. Christian, the law office, Ms. Diaz and the cottage are all within a few blocks of Rudy's home. The exception of course is the nursery. None of this proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Rudy committed these crimes. That said, it is far too large a clue to just dismiss.

.
Is there a Google map available that identifies those locations?
.

 

[acbytesla]

You have previously stated your anxiety re RG being released soon. Given the scenario whereby RG reacts like a complete monster to very little provocation you would be right to be anxious. So for that reason I hope I'm right that there were other elements at play on 1 nov 2007

I'm not sure if RG is a complete monster, just that he acted like one on that night. I've never believed that just because someone does something monstrous that it means that they will continue to do monstrous things for the rest of their lives. All killers and rapists are not serial killers. I do think it is horrible that they continue to pursue Amanda and Raffaele when the evidence for their involvement is very questionable.

Hey, if you think they are guilty, that's fine, but I don't see how you can't recognize that the evidence is equivocal and that many many people think they are not guilty. Doesn't that in itself demonstrate that their is reasonable doubt?

 

[acbytesla]

.
Is there a Google map available that identifies those locations?
.

I mapped them out cody,,but not one online that I know of. The farthest away from Rudy's apartment outside the nursery in Milan was the law office which is about 3 blocks from the cottage. I'd guess that they are all within 4 football pitches of his apartment.

 

[Desert Fox]

The nursery teacher was not unattractive for the record. Thanks for this contribution though. To make RGs behaviour fit the specific evidence he had to turn into a complete monster. This is possible - for anyone - but given the whole picture there is definitely reasonable doubt that RG was a murderous necrophiliac.

I am avoiding the term monster. This is beyond what I can discuss here.

I am writing this in a form assuming that what the book described is accurate and I am remembering it correctly.

Otherwise though, I don't think I would use the term necrophilia here and he did not see it that way either.
It is likely that, even if he was attractive, he had not had much luck with women generally.
His case seems similar to what they described. Other similarities include posing the victim and only partially undressing them after death / unconsciousness. It is hard to completely undress a body.

None of these similar cases seem to have been done with others involved so I doubt he had others involved either.

 

[codyjuneau]

No I didn't, but you are right on. It is the nursery break in that connects Rudy to the law office and his next door neighbor. Without Rudy being caught there, the only thing we would know about is Christian Tremantano.

The evidence of these other crimes I would think would be compelling to everyone as opposed to the anecdotal evidence of the burglary being "staged". You would think the cops would have said..."wait a minute, why are we looking at the burglary being staged" when it's pretty damn clear that Rudy is a dangerous burglar?"

.
I doubt that we know every burglary Rudy was involved in. Someone really should research burglaries in the Perugian and Milan areas for the times leading up to, and maybe even a couple of days after Meredith's murder. It would be surprising to not find more burglaries with Rudy's MO, IMO.
.

 

[JREF2010]

The nursery teacher was not unattractive for the record. Thanks for this contribution though. To make RGs behaviour fit the specific evidence he had to turn into a complete monster. This is possible - for anyone - but given the whole picture there is definitely reasonable doubt that RG was a murderous necrophiliac.

The Milan bust was her and a few other men with her. Who knows what Rudy would have done if she had been alone.
Different opportunities....maybe Rudy was wanting the nice looking lady in Milan and she surprised him by bringing a child and handymen with her.

 

[Rolfe]

Is there any chance someone could quickly summarise what's happened? Or just link to the start of where the motivations report is discussed? I'm afraid I haven't been paying attention.

Rolfe.