Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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My specialist subject; crumble not crisp please. given that they are English students almost certainly they will be using a Delia recipe. I have previously run through the timing on this. Almost certainly the crumble went in the oven before the movie started (that's what one does). Centre shelf 200C 45minutes, leave to cool for 15 minutes. They ate in mid movie, my best estimate is in the oven about 18.30 after taking the pizza out so they would eat the pizza about 18.30 and the crumble about 19.30. Meredith leaves after movie finished about 20.30.

Pizza baked first and then the still hot oven receives the crumble because it seems unlikely they would both fit at the same time. No matter

MK could have left her pizza sit until 8:30 and then gobbled it plus her crumble right before she left. The Britvirgs couldn't seem to remember facts much the same as Knox...they must have been smoking the left hand cigarettes too.

The stomach evidence is just one piece of the circumstantial TOD puzzle. Same as the fully clothed attack evidence, the incomplete phone call to UK, the laundry, the missing normal typical digital activity, RG scream testimony, RG cottage time testimony, RG CCTV evidence. Broken down car people evidence...etc.

More than enough to create a reasonable picture of what happened and when it happened. MK was dead or dying (which took 10 minutes max) by 9:20 PM.

Could AK and RS have been involved? Not according to super-witness Antonio Toto Curatolo...the drugged up expert witness. And he has been deemed extremely reliable and accurate by the the Italian courts...well some of them anyway.
 
Sure. If there is only a 7% chance that she was killed after 9:50 that is enough that Naruto doesn't clear them. And that's all I've been saying.

No kidding.

There's far too much wriggle room in the digestive evidence for it to be the one and only thing that clears A & R. It is, however, very strong on its own and determinative when you combine it with the rest of what's known.

Rudy's arrival before Meredith as shown on the CCTV.
Meredith's never calling her mum back.
Meredith's never getting her wash.
Meredith's book that she came home to study tossed onto her bed.
No motive.
Their eagerness to call the police and the other roommates.
Their willingness to stick around and answer questions all week.
Their hours and hours of secretly taped conversations, none of which caught them saying anything incriminating.
No motive.
Their failure to get lawyers.
Their failure to leave fingerprints, blood, or DNA in the murder room.
Their history of nonviolence and the testimony of their friends and families to same.
The break-in, clearly real.
No motive.

I'm sure there's more. All I've been saying is that if you start with the digestive evidence and discover that there's such a tiny chance that she was still alive after 9:30, you have to ask yourself how strong the rest of the evidence would have to be to suspect (much less jail and indict and convict) A & R.

The answer is, extremely strong. Instead we get cartwheels and inappropriate giggling at the police station and cow underwear and all the rest of the nonsense.

I did read the English womens' testimony, by the way. It's full of "I think" and "about" when there are specific mealtime questions asked, but as I've said before I find it odd that when times are uncertain, they tend to get moved forward as if that were the only possible direction of error.
 
Sure. If there is only a 7% chance that she was killed after 9:50 that is enough that Naruto doesn't clear them. And that's all I've been saying.

There is no doubt that probabilities based on GE and other factors makes it quite likely she was murdered before 9:30, but quite likely doesn't prove innocence.

If there was no doubt a person shot a gun but the chances of killing the victim was one in 100 would that be enough to set them free? I know the analogy isn't perfect but my point is that there isn't a way to prove them innocent with GE or anything else. They need not prove there innocence and the ILE didn't do the job but I don't agree with people contending this will win the day.

I don't think that you can 100 percent clear them on the time alone...say more than 90 percent clear them on that. But three people who barely knew each other combining in that short amount of time to kill Meredith seems very absurd to me unless it was premeditated conspiracy and that seems highly unlikely as well. It clearly wasn't the sex orgy gone awry..unless this is kind of like an Olympic game of group speed sex. There is hardly any time for an argument to boil over to the point of murder not to mention any real motive for the argument.

Say that Amanda and Raffaele are at his apartment at 9:25 and leave at 9:30. It's about a 5 minute walk to Piazza. That is 9:35. Another 5 minutes say talking to Rudy and then another 5 minutes walking to the cottage from the Piazza. Now it's 9:45. So what happens next? Meredith immediately accuses Amanda of stealing her rent money and Amanda pulls out the big knife and says "bitch, shut up" and kills Meredith and Rudy and Raffaele go along with this, even though neither of these two know each other at all?

And if that happened, do you think Amanda would really be gung ho on stripping Meredith after she was killed? And then they part ways and Raffaele goes and dumps the phones and Rudy goes home and then goes dancing? And then after Rudy leaves, Amanda and Raffaele levitate off the floor of the bedroom cleaning only their prints and DNA? Stage the burglary and then cool as a cucumber raise the alarm and pretend that nothing happened?
 
I'm curious why John Douglas pegs it at 10pm, and what else that does for timelines? Not too much maybe. When were the calls to Meredith's bank? Could they have been made from the cottage? Did Rudy have time to go downstairs, get a change of clothes, and still leave in time to be spotted on the steps by the couple coming the other direction? 10 pm might fit that later sighting, assuming it was Rudy, better than an earlier TOD.

After all, all Rudy had to do was be quiet and bide his time on the toilet on the other side of the house. Wait for Meredith to go into her room and then try to leave out the front door. But the front door only locks with a key, and presumably only opens with a key, so Rudy was locked in, and then what are his options, going out of Filomena's window? Maybe he thought he could just rape Meredith and get away with it, so he approaches her and she panics, and then he has to kill her?

Who knows? Besides Rudy, anyway.

If Douglas pins this at 10 then he is wrong!

That would mean that MK hung around, was held, or whatever for a full hour after arriving home at 9:04 and while remaining fully clothed with her outdoor November clothing. Not at all likely. MK was dead before 9:30.

The "fully dressed while attacked" is one of the best time indicators although none of it is certain...but add these brush strokes together and one can get a pretty good picture of the crime and timing of it.
 
BTW...is this discussion even close to relevant now? Is TOD still important? Or are the crazy and certainly provably wrong "facts" recently released in the Nencini motivation something that may be more important now?

Anyone know what Nencini did with the financial assessments? Are the Kerchers wealthy again? This must certainly be something inside this motivation. Also there should be some interesting discussion as to why increased jail time was judged appropriate.

These are things to pick apart. Did Nencini even present a TOD? Mention Toto? He ignored the Massei reasoning completely certainly. That seems important. Two guilty assessments but with completely different cases although supposedly in the same crime apparently.

Sex game gone wrong/Satanic ritual (don't argue...he talked about the Halloween/Day of the dead stuff) or an escalating argument over money and poop.

Remarkably missing is any sort of time line in either guilty finding. Why would that be something allowed to be missing? No motive...OK...maybe. But no facts at all? Perhaps its just me who finds that a little odd.

Where is the walk thru of this crime in either guilty scenario? Is that not necessary?

Since Guede was not a part of this case except for the prison confession guys how is it that Nencini is making up facts about missing money which has to be "according to Guedes story"? Especially in light of the fact that RG DNA is the only one found on MK purse!!!

How is this not auto discredited, illegal, insane? Forget TOD...they have the motive as stealing money from the purse with only RG DNA and not AK and not RS on it. Where did these facts come from and if they are in the trial then why no defense objection? I don't think these were facts in the trial but rather Nencini and company read it in some newspaper.

Gross judicial violations and even outright idiotic speculation based on less than nothing...in fact the opposite of the evidence...since we know about the RG purse DNA.

DUH? It is simply hiding stupidity with ever increasing craziness? Who will ever stop it? The Italians seem incapable of reasonable thought and even less so of taking appropriate action.
 
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I don't think that you can 100 percent clear them on the time alone...say more than 90 percent clear them on that. But three people who barely knew each other combining in that short amount of time to kill Meredith seems very absurd to me unless it was premeditated conspiracy and that seems highly unlikely as well. It clearly wasn't the sex orgy gone awry..unless this is kind of like an Olympic game of group speed sex. There is hardly any time for an argument to boil over to the point of murder not to mention any real motive for the argument.

This isn't betting and you can't add these things or you are doing reverse osmosis (osmotic). Either they could have been at the cottage at TOD or not. Just like the ILE can't make 3 compatibles into a match the defense can't make 3 improbables into an alibi.

Say that Amanda and Raffaele are at his apartment at 9:25 and leave at 9:30. It's about a 5 minute walk to Piazza. That is 9:35. Another 5 minutes say talking to Rudy and then another 5 minutes walking to the cottage from the Piazza. Now it's 9:45. So what happens next? Meredith immediately accuses Amanda of stealing her rent money and Amanda pulls out the big knife and says "bitch, shut up" and kills Meredith and Rudy and Raffaele go along with this, even though neither of these two know each other at all?

Duh! They never went to the plaza. There was never a theft accusation.

And if that happened, do you think Amanda would really be gung ho on stripping Meredith after she was killed? And then they part ways and Raffaele goes and dumps the phones and Rudy goes home and then goes dancing? And then after Rudy leaves, Amanda and Raffaele levitate off the floor of the bedroom cleaning only their prints and DNA? Stage the burglary and then cool as a cucumber raise the alarm and pretend that nothing happened?

Well they weren't that cool or they would have gone to Gubbio.
 
You were wrong. You refuse to acknowledge that the tests were of small meals designed to empty faster for obvious reasons. I understand why you point to allege that there is a 120 minute study but I've not seen anything of the sort. There could be many reasons why they would do a shorter study. Cite it.

Three hours and 20 minutes is the outlier for the mini meal with few fats. The meal the girls prepared was full of fat - cheese and ice cream (gelato is even worse) and of course the Mach factor of unleavened bread.

7:30 is definitely late for the start of their meal BUT no one is even asked when Meredith started eating.

It would be great to take x number of girls similar to Meredith and have them drink like fish the night before and then eat 500 ml of pizza and apple crisp with ice cream.

I said Ok you will cite the meal designed for a speedy test. Fair enough, but two hours is an outlier for this test,
I do acknowledge it. I am not sure the size of meal counts, obviously a small meal will save costs. And uniformity is desired. Obviously they will not furnish some banquet. A citation demonstrating the meal is designed for speed of t/lag would be great. Meanwhile I am far from giving up on the last meal as an alibi. Reinterview the English girls, do a comparative test on similar girls with hangovers, or whatever. The question is what would anyone try to find out if their own daughter was about to be removed to an Italian jail.

Here is the 2 hour test, but site is inoperative at the moment

http://www.mercymedicalcenter.chsli.org/radiology-imaging/gastric-empty-study.html

Not from me interviewing my keyboard.
 
For the first highlite, did Rudy know the area, I provide a quote from Candice Dempsey's book, suggesting the cottage wasn't visible, and not well known even among Perugians. The second highlite, is a great question. Extremely coincidental, but there is so much odd coincidence in this case. Police and Mignini confusion isn't out of the question for me, but not admitting mistakes that are obvious is unforgivable.

Rudy and the Phones -

I think the Rudy's reasons for taking the phones is that he steals phones, like he stole the phone from the Perugian lawyer's office 2 weeks earlier. And after stealing them, realizes they could connect him to a murder and tosses them. Notice though the phone are used to try to access Meredith's bank, although I believe its reported (MMK.com?) that its was the first number in her contacts. (Also, not sure about this though, but it fits Rudy behavior; taking the phones prevents Meredith for calling for help. He knows she's incapacitated, and probably can't walk. But in case she can somehow get to her phone and dial, he takes the precaution to delay discovery as long as possible.

Cottage not well known -

"About a half mile uphill from the cottage, it appeared on the map on Via Sperandio, but was actually on Via Andrea de Perugia, near an early Christian church built on a former pagan temple. Towering tress and thick bushes concealed the property from the road. In fact even many Perugini didn't know there was a house behind all that shrubbery." (at Pg 51, C.Dempsey, Murder in Italy).
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I still think it is very likely Rudy knew where Lana's house was. Rudy was not just one of many Perugians (Perugini?), he lived very close to the city wall passageway that led right by Lana's property. He did not have a car, and I suspect when he was out late he often used that passageway, rather than the city wall gate which closed at 10pm.
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This is Vogt

He categorically rules out contamination. Even in the case of the bra clasp catalogued by police but only collected 46 days later, had Sollecito’s DNA been fruit of contamination it would have been found elsewhere and on other objects taken from the scene that day, such as on Meredith’s blue sweatshirt where Guede’s DNA was found, he wrote, not just on the tiny hook of the bra clasp.

http://thefreelancedesk.com/amanda-knox-trials-meredith-kercher-case/

The battle lines now appear drawn. One can accept Nencini on this only if deliberate planting is argued. This is a very high bar, despite being a likely fact. The timing of the bra clasp collection reeks to high heaven. Hole in one on the par 5 18th.
 
BTW...is this discussion even close to relevant now? Is TOD still important? Or are the crazy and certainly provably wrong "facts" recently released in the Nencini motivation something that may be more important now?

Anyone know what Nencini did with the financial assessments? Are the Kerchers wealthy again? This must certainly be something inside this motivation. Also there should be some interesting discussion as to why increased jail time was judged appropriate.

These are things to pick apart. Did Nencini even present a TOD? Mention Toto? He ignored the Massei reasoning completely certainly. That seems important. Two guilty assessments but with completely different cases although supposedly in the same crime apparently.

Sex game gone wrong/Satanic ritual (don't argue...he talked about the Halloween/Day of the dead stuff) or an escalating argument over money and poop.

Remarkably missing is any sort of time line in either guilty finding. Why would that be something allowed to be missing? No motive...OK...maybe. But no facts at all? Perhaps its just me who finds that a little odd.

Where is the walk thru of this crime in either guilty scenario? Is that not necessary?

Since Guede was not a part of this case except for the prison confession guys how is it that Nencini is making up facts about missing money which has to be "according to Guedes story"? Especially in light of the fact that RG DNA is the only one found on MK purse!!!

How is this not auto discredited, illegal, insane? Forget TOD...they have the motive as stealing money from the purse with only RG DNA and not AK and not RS on it. Where did these facts come from and if they are in the trial then why no defense objection? I don't think these were facts in the trial but rather Nencini and company read it in some newspaper.

Gross judicial violations and even outright idiotic speculation based on less than nothing...in fact the opposite of the evidence...since we know about the RG purse DNA.

DUH? It is simply hiding stupidity with ever increasing craziness? Who will ever stop it? The Italians seem incapable of reasonable thought and even less so of taking appropriate action.

From what I gather he deals with the timeline issue by approximating times. Naruto was 'about' 9.20 and they were at the apartment between 9.30 and 10.00, which is very convenient. The scream was Meredith's though and she made it before the major wound was inflicted. In fact, she was finished off because of the scream (that Toto forgot to mention or did not hear due to the bowl-shaped valley that reflected all the sound into Nara and Monachia's apartments).
 
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I still think it is very likely Rudy knew where Lana's house was. Rudy was not just one of many Perugians (Perugini?), he lived very close to the city wall passageway that led right by Lana's property. He did not have a car, and I suspect when he was out late he often used that passageway, rather than the city wall gate which closed at 10pm.
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Wasn't Lana's house broken into a few times, recently before the Nov 1, 2007? Seem's I recall reading that.

I agree, likely Rudy knew the roads well at night.
Rudy was in that "profession" of burglarizing and who knows what else... it's logical he knew all the dark roads and paths out of sight, most thugs and burglars would.
 
BTW...is this discussion even close to relevant now? Is TOD still important? Or are the crazy and certainly provably wrong "facts" recently released in the Nencini motivation something that may be more important now?

Anyone know what Nencini did with the financial assessments? Are the Kerchers wealthy again? This must certainly be something inside this motivation. Also there should be some interesting discussion as to why increased jail time was judged appropriate.
These are things to pick apart. Did Nencini even present a TOD? Mention Toto? He ignored the Massei reasoning completely certainly. That seems important. Two guilty assessments but with completely different cases although supposedly in the same crime apparently.

Sex game gone wrong/Satanic ritual (don't argue...he talked about the Halloween/Day of the dead stuff) or an escalating argument over money and poop.

Remarkably missing is any sort of time line in either guilty finding. Why would that be something allowed to be missing? No motive...OK...maybe. But no facts at all? Perhaps its just me who finds that a little odd.

Where is the walk thru of this crime in either guilty scenario? Is that not necessary?

Since Guede was not a part of this case except for the prison confession guys how is it that Nencini is making up facts about missing money which has to be "according to Guedes story"? Especially in light of the fact that RG DNA is the only one found on MK purse!!!

How is this not auto discredited, illegal, insane? Forget TOD...they have the motive as stealing money from the purse with only RG DNA and not AK and not RS on it. Where did these facts come from and if they are in the trial then why no defense objection? I don't think these were facts in the trial but rather Nencini and company read it in some newspaper.

Gross judicial violations and even outright idiotic speculation based on less than nothing...in fact the opposite of the evidence...since we know about the RG purse DNA.

DUH? It is simply hiding stupidity with ever increasing craziness? Who will ever stop it? The Italians seem incapable of reasonable thought and even less so of taking appropriate action.

Patrick Lumumba nella somma complessiva di €12.650,00
Aldalia Tattanelli nella somma di €4.500,00
Lyle & Stephanie Kercher nella somma di complessivi €11.000,00 per ciascuna
John Leslie, John Ashley & Arline Kercher in complessivi €15.000,00

Ciascuna seems to be 'each' and complessivi 'total'.

ETA: is there an Italian reader who can interpret whether this is total damages, or on top of the original amounts from Massei?

http://www.amandaknox.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/img-206131120-0001.pdf
 
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Andrea Vogt on Nencini on C-V

However those who have the most explaining to do are Rome Professors Carla Vecchiotti and Stefano Conti, the two court-appointed independent experts whose scathing report of the forensic evidence in Knox’s first appeal (later annulled) led to her acquittal and release in 2011.

In his report released earlier this week, Judge Nencini does not mince words, alternatively describing their work reviewing the forensics “clearly in error,” “misleading” and even “reprehensible.” It is not the first time. She was also cited for clamorous errors in a previous murder case (Olgiata) in which forensic samples were mixed up. Nencini’s report is bound to amplify concerns already circulating within the Italian forensic community, and could possibly even trigger an investigation.

Over the course of approximately 50 pages of his 337 reasoning report, Nencini does a thorough analysis of all the court evidence, lab data and depositions by all the forensic consultants, and essentially debunks Vecchiotti and Conti’s report. He reveals that the two experts overlooked available data, altered the meaning of forensic police statements to fit their thesis, erred in their interpretation methods and falsely claimed the technology didn’t exist to test a small trace of DNA that was later successfully tested. If you are not interested in forensic minutiae, you can stop reading now.

The harsh Vecchiotti-Conti review begins on page 195 of Nencini’s report. The possibility of contamination so hotly debated by consultants and made credible to the point of being included in the independent experts’ written report actually “has no significance” in the criminal trial, he wrote, and was “misleading.”

He categorically rules out contamination. Even in the case of the bra clasp catalogued by police but only collected 46 days later, had Sollecito’s DNA been fruit of contamination it would have been found elsewhere and on other objects taken from the scene that day, such as on Meredith’s blue sweatshirt where Guede’s DNA was found, he wrote, not just on the tiny hook of the bra clasp. He notes records show there were no other items containing Sollecito’s DNA handled that day, ruling out making laboratory contamination. Nencini accepts there may have been professional lapses on part of the forensic police, but determines that none of those oversights were so grave as to have negatively impacted the forensic analysis with regard to the case. The absence of contamination is also proven by the records of negative and positive controls performed by much-maligned forensic biologist Patrizia Stefanoni. Those controls were done and had been referred to in court, but Vecchiotti and Conti overlooked this, claiming there was no record of them.

...

It was the responsibility of the experts to look at all the data available, Nencini said, but Vecchiotti and Conti did not. Their report cites no proof of negative and positive controls for contamination, yet Nencini found a deposition from one of the preliminary hearings in October 2008, where Stefanoni clearly said they had been done, and, in fact, examples of such were deposited that day. He notes that one of prosecution consultants requested and obtained that data and used it to rule out contamination. The fact that the two independent experts completely overlooked this data showed a “scarce attention was being given to the case documents deposited with the court.”

But there is more, Nencini writes.

The decision not to test Trace “I” of DNA that was later revealed to be a trace of Amanda Knox’s DNA on the handle of the kitchen knife was an autonomous decision of the two experts that was communicated verbally to the consultants, but was not a joint decision of all the forensic consultants, as the experts suggested. Court records show the Kercher family and prosecution’s forensic consultants all maintained in September 2011 that the technology existed to trace the small trace and requested that it be done. That Professor Vecchiotti convicingly and repeatedly said it could not be tested was “clearly in error.” The Nencini court went ahead with the testing, and the RIS in Rome were able to get a reliable result, following all double amplification requirements and international protocols. Nencini notes that RIS officials as well as other consultants testified that the kit for identifying such a small trace of DNA was available on the Italian market back in 2011, but they were ignored. The trace should have been tested, Nencini wrote, and by reporting that it was impossible to do so, the experts contributed to an error of judgement by the presiding magistrate, whose ruling was eventually tossed. Nencini considers several pages of statistical and genetic analysis made by various consultants in both the first and second appeals. On page 221, he writes that “the behavior of Vecchiotti was “censurable” because before providing an imprecise report in a trial, she should have requested the controls documentation from the forensic police and only in the case of that data not being provided, come to the conclusions that she did.

For CoulsdonUK there is this:

The defense teams have 45 days from May 2 to deposit their cassation appeals, which means by mid-June the case files will be back on their way to Rome for review.
 
Andrea Vogt on Nencini on C-V



For CoulsdonUK there is this:

Well gee. If C&V are irrelevant, because they are part of Hellman, why does nencini spend 50 pages trashing them? And if they are not irrelevant, then recall that they are the courts own independent experts, so why doesn't he order the production and evaluation of the missing lab data, since it certainly was requested.

And what about the defense experts, since they said basically the same things as C&V, had requested the same documents, but were denied access to them by massei. Isn't Nencini now proving that the defense was denied access to critical evidence on the issue of contamination?

Finally, I don't think nencini has a clue in the world what a negative control is, and I don't think that Novelli has seen the relevant ones, either.

What we have here is an attempt to explain away what nencini recognizes is an equality of arms violation.
 
Andrea Vogt - "journalist", on Nencini 'motivation'.

Andrea Vogt on Nencini on C-V

For CoulsdonUK there is this:

Andrea Vogt excerpt;

"The harsh Vecchiotti-Conti review begins on page 195 of Nencini’s report. The possibility of contamination so hotly debated by consultants and made credible to the point of being included in the independent experts’ written report actually “has no significance” in the criminal trial, he wrote, and was “misleading.”
He categorically rules out contamination. Even in the case of the bra clasp catalogued by police but only collected 46 days later, had Sollecito’s DNA been fruit of contamination it would have been found elsewhere and on other objects taken from the scene that day, such as on Meredith’s blue sweatshirt where Guede’s DNA was found, he wrote, not just on the tiny hook of the bra clasp. He notes records show there were no other items containing Sollecito’s DNA handled that day, ruling out making laboratory contamination. Nencini accepts there may have been professional lapses on part of the forensic police, but determines that none of those oversights were so grave as to have negatively impacted the forensic analysis with regard to the case. The absence of contamination is also proven by the records of negative and positive controls performed by much-maligned forensic biologist Patrizia Stefanoni. Those controls were done and had been referred to in court, but Vecchiotti and Conti overlooked this, claiming there was no record of them."
Highlite 1 - Wow. Contaminated evidence isn't relevant in a criminal trial.

Highlite 2 - So more DNA findings of Sollecito in the murder room, would be more indicative of contamination, and less indicative of his presence and participation in the murder? Rudy Guede's DNA must therefore all be the result of contamination.

Highlite 3 - So C &V are mistaken, in that Stefanoni did comply with all of their requests for data? IS that possibly true in any conceivable way, no matter how you twist up the words?
 
Andrea Vogt excerpt;

"The harsh Vecchiotti-Conti review begins on page 195 of Nencini’s report. The possibility of contamination so hotly debated by consultants and made credible to the point of being included in the independent experts’ written report actually “has no significance” in the criminal trial, he wrote, and was “misleading.”
He categorically rules out contamination. Even in the case of the bra clasp catalogued by police but only collected 46 days later, had Sollecito’s DNA been fruit of contamination it would have been found elsewhere and on other objects taken from the scene that day, such as on Meredith’s blue sweatshirt where Guede’s DNA was found, he wrote, not just on the tiny hook of the bra clasp. He notes records show there were no other items containing Sollecito’s DNA handled that day, ruling out making laboratory contamination. Nencini accepts there may have been professional lapses on part of the forensic police, but determines that none of those oversights were so grave as to have negatively impacted the forensic analysis with regard to the case. The absence of contamination is also proven by the records of negative and positive controls performed by much-maligned forensic biologist Patrizia Stefanoni. Those controls were done and had been referred to in court, but Vecchiotti and Conti overlooked this, claiming there was no record of them."
Highlite 1 - Wow. Contaminated evidence isn't relevant in a criminal trial.

Highlite 2 - So more DNA findings of Sollecito in the murder room, would be more indicative of contamination, and less indicative of his presence and participation in the murder? Rudy Guede's DNA must therefore all be the result of contamination.

Highlite 3 - So C &V are mistaken, in that Stefanoni did comply with all of their requests for data? IS that possibly true in any conceivable way, no matter how you twist up the words?

Why not go Occam, and conclude reference dna of Sollecito was wiped on the clasp (accidentally)

For precedent I grew up with

A Royal Commission of Inquiry was established, headed by retired New South Wales Justice Robert Taylor. This declared Thomas to have been wrongfully charged and convicted, and found that among other improprieties, police had planted a .22 rifle cartridge case in the garden of the house where the murders were committed. The case was found four months and ten days after the area had already been subjected to one of the most intensive police searches ever undertaken. The cartridge case was said to have come from a rifle belonging to Thomas. However, the police tested only 64 rifles in an area where this weapon was common and found that two – including the one belonging to Thomas – could have fired the cartridge case found in the garden. This was the link to the deaths of the Crewes although it was later admitted that the case was "clean" and uncorroded when found. As such, the condition of the case was inconsistent with having lain in the garden, exposed to weather and dirt for more than four months.

I agree with Grinder, arguments like this may be a hiding to nowhere with the public, but the full case history requires all elements to be scrutinised.
 
Well gee. If C&V are irrelevant, because they are part of Hellman, why does nencini spend 50 pages trashing them? And if they are not irrelevant, then recall that they are the courts own independent experts, so why doesn't he order the production and evaluation of the missing lab data, since it certainly was requested.

And what about the defense experts, since they said basically the same things as C&V, had requested the same documents, but were denied access to them by massei. Isn't Nencini now proving that the defense was denied access to critical evidence on the issue of contamination?

Finally, I don't think nencini has a clue in the world what a negative control is, and I don't think that Novelli has seen the relevant ones, either.

What we have here is an attempt to explain away what nencini recognizes is an equality of arms violation.

I agree, he seems to be regarding them as defence experts rather than independent court appointed experts. The view of the Scientific Police on their own practice overrides the defence experts, the independent experts and international standards.

I find the discussion about controls is odd. In science we now tend to do large data dumps to accessible on line stores so people can examine the 'raw' data rather than your own interpretation in papers. If someone contacted me asking for the data my first response might be why didn't you download it. But there are sometimes issues, I have downloaded a completely different dataset from the one I wanted, because the link was wrong. So we would just email the dataset. As a matter of courtesy if someone is reviewing your work rather than saying look at the paper copies filed in the court proceedings (or even on a disc) it is reasonable to send directly an electronic file. I find this worryingly obstructive, why did not the police just say we filed the controls but here is a copy. Why be obstructive to the agents of the court?

Finally I note there is no statement from Nencini saying he has seen the control data with his own eyes only that Stefanoni says she provided the data. Nencini may not realise that just saying the controls were negative is sufficient. We need to know the details, were they run to same sensitivity as the sample? The same number of replication cycles? Did this include environmental controls?
 
I agree, he seems to be regarding them as defence experts rather than independent court appointed experts. The view of the Scientific Police on their own practice overrides the defence experts, the independent experts and international standards.

I find the discussion about controls is odd. In science we now tend to do large data dumps to accessible on line stores so people can examine the 'raw' data rather than your own interpretation in papers. If someone contacted me asking for the data my first response might be why didn't you download it. But there are sometimes issues, I have downloaded a completely different dataset from the one I wanted, because the link was wrong. So we would just email the dataset. As a matter of courtesy if someone is reviewing your work rather than saying look at the paper copies filed in the court proceedings (or even on a disc) it is reasonable to send directly an electronic file. I find this worryingly obstructive, why did not the police just say we filed the controls but here is a copy. Why be obstructive to the agents of the court?

Finally I note there is no statement from Nencini saying he has seen the control data with his own eyes only that Stefanoni says she provided the data. Nencini may not realise that just saying the controls were negative is sufficient. We need to know the details, were they run to same sensitivity as the sample? The same number of replication cycles? Did this include environmental controls?


Thank you, Planigale. Here is the latest and most comprehensive discussion of the lab's data suppression: http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/missing-profiles-draft/. Please take a look--I think you will be shocked.

What we have here is isn't just a few oversights . . . it's outright, court-sanctioned fraud.
 
Thank you, Planigale. Here is the latest and most comprehensive discussion of the lab's data suppression: http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/missing-profiles-draft/. Please take a look--I think you will be shocked.

What we have here is isn't just a few oversights . . . it's outright, court-sanctioned fraud.

Can someone go through those graphs point by point, and in non technical language for the DNA-challenged.

People say this is important, and that it is proof of fraud, but I for one do not have the chops to interpret the data.
 
Why not go Occam, and conclude reference dna of Sollecito was wiped on the clasp (accidentally)

For precedent I grew up with

A Royal Commission of Inquiry was established, headed by retired New South Wales Justice Robert Taylor. This declared Thomas to have been wrongfully charged and convicted, and found that among other improprieties, police had planted a .22 rifle cartridge case in the garden of the house where the murders were committed. The case was found four months and ten days after the area had already been subjected to one of the most intensive police searches ever undertaken. The cartridge case was said to have come from a rifle belonging to Thomas. However, the police tested only 64 rifles in an area where this weapon was common and found that two – including the one belonging to Thomas – could have fired the cartridge case found in the garden. This was the link to the deaths of the Crewes although it was later admitted that the case was "clean" and uncorroded when found. As such, the condition of the case was inconsistent with having lain in the garden, exposed to weather and dirt for more than four months.

I agree with Grinder, arguments like this may be a hiding to nowhere with the public, but the full case history requires all elements to be scrutinised.

Samson while I think that making a statement that says because of GE she had to be murdered by 9:10 or 9:15 doesn't work, the section you focused on (I think) is something to bring out:

Highlite 2 - So more DNA findings of Sollecito in the murder room, would be more indicative of contamination, and less indicative of his presence and participation in the murder? Rudy Guede's DNA must therefore all be the result of contamination.

this means that it can only be contamination if he was part of the murder or at least almost certainly part of the murder. A classic catch-22.

I believe that most people would never believe the finding after 45 days if it were in a movie. Could someone have rubbed something on the clasp in the 45 days?

This is the number one piece of evidence that planting of some sort does rear it's ugly head . But as usual the job wasn't done with competence. This is just a hunch and not something I can prove but how convenient.

I think C&V being part of this, as I thought it was because its part of the trial (RIS report), does mean that Hellmann wasn't wiped clean from the trial records.

I would say nothing would be better for the kids than C&V being taken to task. Independently appointed to the trial from a top university are called out by this judge makes Italy look like a joke no matter how one looks at it.
 
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