Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Samson]

There are so many facts that are ignored. The ballistics expert for the defence carried out a series of experiments showing that the glass deposition in Filomena's room could only have arisen from a stone thrown from outside. But the judges appear to prefer their own opinion (or I suppose that of the prosecution) that the stone was too big to be thrown through the window (although the experiments were carried out by throwing a similar sized rock), and that the outside shutters which were part closed when photographed must have been in the same position unless the defence prove otherwise, and if the shutters are part closed the stone could not be thrown through the window. Therefore the glass deposition must be a consequence of staging by the defendants. The only person with an interest in staging is ….. Knox.

So one could argue the whole case rests on the position of the outer shutter, and whether that might have moved. FWIW if I was a burglar and had broken in through that window I would have pulled the outer shutter closed after me to conceal the broken window from passers by.

Here is the embedded glass shard. The blue arrow points to the location, unfortunately to load the picture I had to reduce the size, and detail.



The unresolved question is the velocity required. The maximum is 28 mph as the release velocity for a record female shot put, same weight as the rock. Rudy Raffaele or Amanda could not achieve this.
There may be a spring effect as the glass breaks driving this shard somewhat remote from the impact crater, at a higher speed than the rock impact. What is interesting is the glass shard embedding while the shutter is being thrust open. I have long held that all the ballistics required to achieve this high velocity bullet like embedment could never be countenanced while attempting to clandestinely cover for a homicide. It is notable that no
pgp, including The Machine Harryrag were aware of this picture even a month ago. They refuse to engage, yet despite mumbling photoshop know that this never happened. The photographs were taken the day the body was discovered, and can be forensically employed to finally disprove the staging of a break in.

 

[Planigale]

the interesting thing is the defence ballistics expert comments on this "Here we have a break, let's say one of the shredding wood for us that might be the point of impact of the rock that hit the darkening of the window, near quell'effrazione see that ... the red circle, here is a small piece of glass that is stuck in the wood as also that other lower down, behold, this also is a small fragment of glass that is probably stuck in the wood ... definitely not probably by the action of pushing the stone in this case."

http://www.amandaknox.com/wp-conten...Pasquali-Farsi-Argiro-Campolongo-Luciani2.pdf google translation.

I wish his videos could be uploaded. I also think it would be helpful to address the issue about whether any glass would be expected outside the building, he does not report this, but It would be better to see the vids and have a better translation.

Darkening of window means internal shutter.

 

[Samson]

the interesting thing is the defence ballistics expert comments on this "Here we have a break, let's say one of the shredding wood for us that might be the point of impact of the rock that hit the darkening of the window, near quell'effrazione see that ... the red circle, here is a small piece of glass that is stuck in the wood as also that other lower down, behold, this also is a small fragment of glass that is probably stuck in the wood ... definitely not probably by the action of pushing the stone in this case."

http://www.amandaknox.com/wp-conten...Pasquali-Farsi-Argiro-Campolongo-Luciani2.pdf google translation.

I wish his videos could be uploaded. I also think it would be helpful to address the issue about whether any glass would be expected outside the building, he does not report this, but It would be better to see the vids and have a better translation.

Darkening of window means internal shutter.

I think glass outside the building would be unexpected. Remember the ledge is wide. Rudy threw this rock with adrenaline fuelled force, with the accuracy of the skilled amateur basketballer that he is. When he pulled the shutter closed to conceal his activity, the glass all lined up.
The glass fragment is embedded with velocity remote from the timber, no pushing action could ever replicate this. Practical people from downunder see this quite intuitively

 

[Samson]

I truly believe that Italians' brains operate differently. Mach, Popper and Clander are all intelligent but have brains that are wired differently. They don't question a Curatolo because why would he lie. They believe that 3 compatibles equal a match - they really believe that.

Curatolo is ruled out by the Naruto video so the time has to be fudged to 9:20. Why would Nonsense not move Curatolo to 9:35?

Popper just said this

I did not believe Amanda Knox from day one. I have always believed she was there that night and covered her ears at some point (by her own words), but that she twisted facts and lied to cover and protect herself on some level (what level I didn’t know).

And then this

What counts above all is that, unless someone spills the bean, we can leave their psycho problems to the social workers in prison and the surveillance judge who will decide on their prison benefits in 15 years.

This combo is not intelligence, but frustration that nothing since day one has yielded closure for him.

Perhaps unfairly I am using his words to illustrate the fearful dilemma the PGP experience, the damn perps won't crack.

Jackie from PMF encouraged him to read all your posts, and he has. If only they would engage here, some progress might be made.

 

[katy_did]

He walked to the bathroom in shoes not yet bloody. Removes a shoe and sock. Plants foot in bidet. Washes blood off jeans. Planted foot acquires small amount of diluted blood most of which he transfers to the mat.

Are you saying the floor of the bathroom showed up nothing to luminol? That seems very unlikely. It implies a 100% transfer of all blood to the underside of the bathmat. So he punctiliously ensured there were no prints leading to the bathroom but nonetheless planted his footprint on the bathmat? Why not obscure that in Meredith's blood too or take it away and toss it in the trash?

I wonder if there's something in Hellmann's theory that Guede lost a shoe during the struggle. When you think of how the critical part of the attack probably happened, Guede holding Meredith from behind with one arm around her neck, there's very little she could've done to effectively fight back in that situation. She wasn't in much of a position to try to hit him; one of the few things she could've done is to kick or stamp on his feet and legs. Perhaps she did try to stamp on his foot and this is when his shoe came off.

At some point after that he steps in blood with his sock, puts his shoe back on to go to the bathroom and removes it to wash his foot in the bidet, hence the lack of prints leading there.

The only problems I see with the washing blood from his jeans theory are that I'm not totally sure enough blood would've transferred to the sole of his foot that way (although it's possible) and that washing his jeans would've left one heck of a mess in the bathroom, washing just his foot much less so.

 

[Samson]

I wonder if there's something in Hellmann's theory that Guede lost a shoe during the struggle. When you think of how the critical part of the attack probably happened, Guede holding Meredith from behind with one arm around her neck, there's very little she could've done to effectively fight back in that situation. She wasn't in much of a position to try to hit him; one of the few things she could've done is to kick or stamp on his feet and legs. Perhaps she did try to stamp on his foot and this is when his shoe came off.

At some point after that he steps in blood with his sock, puts his shoe back on to go to the bathroom and removes it to wash his foot in the bidet, hence the lack of prints leading there.

The only problems I see with the washing blood from his jeans theory are that I'm not totally sure enough blood would've transferred to the sole of his foot that way (although it's possible) and that washing his jeans would've left one heck of a mess in the bathroom, washing just his foot much less so.

I only vaguely follow these theories, but under any scenario my understanding is a clean up would have been revealed by swirl marks under luminol, irrespective of multiple footprint activity on body discovery by many people.

 

[carbonjam72]

Anyone else hear that Police erased a footprint in crime scene video?

I don't have any luminol data from the bathroom. Which tells me that it was closely checked and nothing was found or else we would have been bombarded.

OK...so the one sided shoe prints leaving towards the door are unrelated to the soaking pants in the bathroom then?

Because they have to be unrelated or else how did he get cleanly back into the bedroom? Or did he leave straight from the bidet job wash off and out towards the door?

Possible I suppose and then after the blood is worn off he could travel back and forth any unknown number of times.

Why leave the mat? He didn't notice it was bloody...hes an idiot...he was scared witless? He thought he heard something?

The aspirated blood indicates a rather loud and horrible sounding death... even thought it may well have been something happening while Miss Kercher was unconscious. Coughing and breathing or attempting to does not require any conscious action.

Scary horrible sounding noises. A relative amateur killer would be frightened witless. And recall his testimony about all that dreadful red that he can never forget.

I bet.

I remember seeing a doc done after the first appeal acquittal, where they had the crime scene video of the police engaging in strange investigative techniques, to show the botched foensics. One example they highlighted, (also I think mentioned by AK's pro bono attorney Anne Bremmer), where a police officer is actually scrubbing clean a footprint at the crime scene until there was no trace of it left. I''ve been wondering where in the house the footprint was located that was erased? (Does anyone else recall anything like that?).

One possible answer is when the postal cop Battistelli?, entered Meredith's room to check if she was alive, something he swears he didn't do. Maybe he left a print somehow?

Another 'darker' answer, is maybe the police did erase the bottom half of the bathmat footprint on the floor, as for their purposes, half a foot-print is better than a whole, just like delaying the taking of the body temperature broadens the time of death and thereby enlarges the pool of possible suspects who need a longer alibi to prove innocence. That's why no luminol tests from the small bathroom? (Then again, maybe luminol is used to reveal blood when they can't detect it. In the bathroom, traces of blood were already visible, so they know its there and then shift to a different test tool for blood they can see).

The other instance of apparently odd investigative technique mentioned in the doc (as long as I'm on this), was of Zugarini kicking in the downstairs door (edited for sneaking comic effect, I suspect). This didn't make sense to me when I first saw it, but after I saw that there was a single trail of blood drops from the upper to the lower apartment (MMK.com), they may well have suspected there was something or someone still inside down below, maybe hiding or whatever. So there may have been a feasible urgency to get in there and investigate. Just saying...

 

[andreajo]

Will Raffaele ever spend another night in jail?
In a snap poll I would vote no. I just think there is something I am missing which confounds me. On the other hand they seem to genuinely believe he did something wicked on three other web sites.
I am flummoxed.

Lots of people hate Amanda and Raffaele, but nobody really seems to be afraid of them. I don't think there are community petitions to drive them from the neighborhoods where they live or anything.

 

[Samson]

I remember seeing a doc done after the first appeal acquittal, where they had the crime scene video of the police engaging in strange investigative techniques, to show the botched foensics. One example they highlighted, (also I think mentioned by AK's pro bono attorney Anne Bremmer), where a police officer is actually scrubbing clean a footprint at the crime scene until there was no trace of it left. I''ve been wondering where in the house the footprint was located that was erased? (Does anyone else recall anything like that?).

One possible answer is when the postal cop Battistelli?, entered Meredith's room to check if she was alive, something he swears he didn't do. Maybe he left a print somehow?

Another 'darker' answer, is maybe the police did erase the bottom half of the bathmat footprint on the floor, as for their purposes, half a foot-print is better than a whole, just like delaying the taking of the body temperature broadens the time of death and thereby enlarges the pool of possible suspects who need a longer alibi to prove innocence. That's why no luminol tests from the small bathroom? (Then again, maybe luminol is used to reveal blood when they can't detect it. In the bathroom, traces of blood were already visible, so they know its there and then shift to a different test tool for blood they can see).

The other instance of apparently odd investigative technique mentioned in the doc (as long as I'm on this), was of Zugarini kicking in the downstairs door (edited for sneaking comic effect, I suspect). This didn't make sense to me when I first saw it, but after I saw that there was a single trail of blood drops from the upper to the lower apartment (MMK.com), they may well have suspected there was something or someone still inside down below, maybe hiding or whatever. So there may have been a feasible urgency to get in there and investigate. Just saying...

carbonjam72 , The temperature of the body is rendered totally irrelevant by the stomach contents. She was dead at 9pm or shortly after, though I realise this is not the point you are making, as they could not know that at that time.

 

[Desert Fox]

And then this

What counts above all is that, unless someone spills the bean, we can leave their psycho problems to the social workers in prison and the surveillance judge who will decide on their prison benefits in 15 years.

I wonder if those who argue for guilt are not the ones who need to see a psychologist.

 

[Samson]

Lots of people hate Amanda and Raffaele, but nobody really seems to be afraid of them. I don't think there are community petitions to drive them from the neighborhoods where they live or anything.

Andreajo, just to clarify, my no vote is what I think won't happen rather than what I think should not happen, of course I think it should not happen also, sorry to be pedantic if my meaning was already obvious

 

[katy_did]

I only vaguely follow these theories, but under any scenario my understanding is a clean up would have been revealed by swirl marks under luminol, irrespective of multiple footprint activity on body discovery by many people.

Indeed, and that's why Nencini's argument is so nonsensical of course: if the lack of footprints between the bathmat and the bedroom is evidence footprints were cleaned up, then how come they weren't revealed with luminol? There should at least have been a swirl pattern to show where they were cleaned up, as you say.

 

[carbonjam72]

Rudy & the phones, AND, visibility of the cottage

.
Absolutely, either reason, or both, for taking the phones works for me too AC.

As for his actions after leaving the cottage, another possibility is that Rudy went back to his place through the unlocked city gate with everything before 10 pm. Later, after 10 pm, he decided to get rid of the phones, so he went out the city wall passageway and chucked them into Lana's yard. He must have known the area and that he was chucking them into the yard of a residence. There might have been an extra purpose to this, or not. I would sure like to know which phone number made that bomb threat phone call to Lana's house 'around 10 pm' and when exactly it was made. Maybe it will show up with the missing DNA files one day.
.

For the first highlite, did Rudy know the area, I provide a quote from Candice Dempsey's book, suggesting the cottage wasn't visible, and not well known even among Perugians. The second highlite, is a great question. Extremely coincidental, but there is so much odd coincidence in this case. Police and Mignini confusion isn't out of the question for me, but not admitting mistakes that are obvious is unforgivable.

Rudy and the Phones -

I think the Rudy's reasons for taking the phones is that he steals phones, like he stole the phone from the Perugian lawyer's office 2 weeks earlier. And after stealing them, realizes they could connect him to a murder and tosses them. Notice though the phone are used to try to access Meredith's bank, although I believe its reported (MMK.com?) that its was the first number in her contacts. (Also, not sure about this though, but it fits Rudy behavior; taking the phones prevents Meredith for calling for help. He knows she's incapacitated, and probably can't walk. But in case she can somehow get to her phone and dial, he takes the precaution to delay discovery as long as possible.

Cottage not well known -

"About a half mile uphill from the cottage, it appeared on the map on Via Sperandio, but was actually on Via Andrea de Perugia, near an early Christian church built on a former pagan temple. Towering tress and thick bushes concealed the property from the road. In fact even many Perugini didn't know there was a house behind all that shrubbery." (at Pg 51, C.Dempsey, Murder in Italy).

 

[Samson]

Indeed, and that's why Nencini's argument is so nonsensical of course: if the lack of footprints between the bathmat and the bedroom is evidence footprints were cleaned up, then how come they weren't revealed with luminol? There should at least have been a swirl pattern to show where they were cleaned up, as you say.

I am late to this discussion, but find more and more curiosities. Nencini is a disciple of the Hellmann annulment, and a disciple of Massei.
Cross out the above, and say he has actually done what the modern day kids are forbidden to do, write an assignment from Wikipedia. He is a lazy Italian oaf.
PS Wikipedia is worth a million Masseis.

 

[Planigale]

I only vaguely follow these theories, but under any scenario my understanding is a clean up would have been revealed by swirl marks under luminol, irrespective of multiple footprint activity on body discovery by many people.

Sorry boys no Luminol used in the Kercher/Knox bathroom there are the famous red stained pics showing a phenolphthalein based reagent.

 

[carbonjam72]

On Glass Shards, relating to 'staged break-in', glass fragment in murder room

Here is the embedded glass shard. The blue arrow points to the location, unfortunately to load the picture I had to reduce the size, and detail.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_664355364ae8852b1d.jpg[/qimg]

The unresolved question is the velocity required. The maximum is 28 mph as the release velocity for a record female shot put, same weight as the rock. Rudy Raffaele or Amanda could not achieve this.
There may be a spring effect as the glass breaks driving this shard somewhat remote from the impact crater, at a higher speed than the rock impact. What is interesting is the glass shard embedding while the shutter is being thrust open. I have long held that all the ballistics required to achieve this high velocity bullet like embedment could never be countenanced while attempting to clandestinely cover for a homicide. It is notable that no
pgp, including The Machine Harryrag were aware of this picture even a month ago. They refuse to engage, yet despite mumbling photoshop know that this never happened. The photographs were taken the day the body was discovered, and can be forensically employed to finally disprove the staging of a break in.

It's also important to remember this is one small glass shard embedded in the old wood of the shutter. There's a lot of glass that wasn't propelled with enough velocity and at exactly the right angle into a soft enough surface so as to result in embedding. (This is the champion of glass fragments!) But we're lucky to have one example. Plus the pitted mark on the side of the window frame where the rock struck. Plus the pattern of glass sprayed around the inside of the room.

It's obvious nonsense to suggest the rock was thrown from the inside out. And there are tests that can be performed on the glass to confirm or refute that allegation, which the prosecution wouldn't allow. (Hendry's 'break-in' analysis on IIP is pretty convincing on this point).

As I've said, my belief is the police know the break-in is real, but they have to maintain this fiction for some reason - I say to protect Guede, and hence themselves for not having arrested him 5 days earlier. It is an indication of 'conscious framing' that the police consistently refuse to allow any tests or challenges which will refute their theories of the crime and help the defendants.

ALSO, AN INTERESTING DEFENSE ARGUMENT - the defense pointed out there were glass particle(s?) found by Rudy's bloody footprints in Meredith's room, and point to that as an indication that the break-in occurred before the assault on Meredith.

 

[Samson]

It's also important to remember this is one small glass shard embedded in the old wood of the shutter. There's a lot of glass that wasn't propelled with enough velocity and at exactly the right angle into a soft enough surface so as to result in embedding. (This is the champion of glass fragments!) But we're lucky to have one example. Plus the pitted mark on the side of the window frame where the rock struck. Plus the pattern of glass sprayed around the inside of the room.

It's obvious nonsense to suggest the rock was thrown from the inside out. And there are tests that can be performed on the glass to confirm or refute that allegation, which the prosecution wouldn't allow. (Hendry's 'break-in' analysis on IIP is pretty convincing on this point).

As I've said, my belief is the police know the break-in is real, but they have to maintain this fiction for some reason - I say to protect Guede, and hence themselves for not having arrested him 5 days earlier. It is an indication of 'conscious framing' that the police consistently refuse to allow any tests or challenges which will refute their theories of the crime and help the defendants.

ALSO, AN INTERESTING DEFENSE ARGUMENT - the defense pointed out there were glass particle(s?) found by Rudy's bloody footprints in Meredith's room, and point to that as an indication that the break-in occurred before the assault on Meredith.

Check Anglolawyer's avatar
Ne'er truer word, I am stone cold certain that this hole in one gets the kids off the murder rap eventually.

 

[Dan O.]

I only vaguely follow these theories, but under any scenario my understanding is a clean up would have been revealed by swirl marks under luminol, irrespective of multiple footprint activity on body discovery by many people.

The list of rooms tested with Luminol given in trial testimony did not include the small bathroom.

 

[Samson]

Sorry boys no Luminol used in the Kercher/Knox bathroom there are the famous red stained pics showing a phenolphthalein based reagent.

heh Katydid doesn't look like a boy

 

[Samson]

The list of rooms tested with Luminol given in trial testimony did not include the small bathroom.

Ok, but maybe a reprise on why there was such weighty testimony on footprints in general being accorded inculpatory weight when so many people behaved like tourists before the forensics were analysed.