Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Grinder]

The problem I have with this is the introduction of 'sub-motives'. People are not logical (excepting Mr Spock). We have Nencini arguing that the phones must have been dumped by Sollecito/Knox because Guede would have had no logical motive to take them (and dump them). But I think just how logical would a human be after just committing a murder? But what do I know I'm just a little marsupial and Nencini is an experienced judge.

In fact he utilises this fact as evidence against Guede as sole perpetrator, since the defence did not explain why Guede as sole perpetrator would take the phones. This made me realise that for Nencini it was not sufficient for the defence to prove that it was unlikely that Sollecito and Knox were guilty but they actually had to prove a perfect case against Guede.

I agree that trying to put logical reasoning in this case is very difficult. Even if the murder was as most here believe, a case of burglary gone bad, it is still hard to believe that Rudi would go on to murder Meredith. What would his rational motive have been? Yes, he would be in a little trouble for breaking in but if he was the darling of the PLE, not much to worry about.

Even if he jumped her and was raping her, he had to know as a disciple of Locard that he would be caught from everything, he by law (Locard's), had left behind.

It is troubling that the Italians seem to require a better story from the defense than the story from the prosecution making it more of a preponderance of evidence or of pseudo evidence in this case, rather than guilt BRD.

 

[Desert Fox]

So they respond to looking ridiculous by making themselves look more ridiculous?

 

[acbytesla]

The problem I have with this is the introduction of 'sub-motives'. People are not logical (excepting Mr Spock). We have Nencini arguing that the phones must have been dumped by Sollecito/Knox because Guede would have had no logical motive to take them (and dump them). But I think just how logical would a human be after just committing a murder? But what do I know I'm just a little marsupial and Nencini is an experienced judge.

In fact he utilises this fact as evidence against Guede as sole perpetrator, since the defence did not explain why Guede as sole perpetrator would take the phones. This made me realise that for Nencini it was not sufficient for the defence to prove that it was unlikely that Sollecito and Knox were guilty but they actually had to prove a perfect case against Guede.

I've always thought the idea that Rudy had to have a motive for taking the phones and them dumping them as stupid. Your point that Rudy wasn't thinking straight moments after the murder is what I've always believed.

But if it has to be logical, a real consideration is that Meredith wasn't dead or Rudy wasn't 100 percent convinced that Meredith was dead and somehow he couldn't finish her off. Maybe she was unconscious but still breathing and he couldn't get himself to finish her off. But was afraid that Meredith might somehow regain consciousness and call 9-11 or whatever the Italian equivalent is so Rudy took her phones and locked her door knowing that she would die in time.

 

[anglolawyer]

I agree that trying to put logical reasoning in this case is very difficult. Even if the murder was as most here believe, a case of burglary gone bad, it is still hard to believe that Rudi would go on to murder Meredith. What would his rational motive have been? Yes, he would be in a little trouble for breaking in but if he was the darling of the PLE, not much to worry about.

Even if he jumped her and was raping her, he had to know as a disciple of Locard that he would be caught from everything, he by law (Locard's), had left behind.

It is troubling that the Italians seem to require a better story from the defense than the story from the prosecution making it more of a preponderance of evidence or of pseudo evidence in this case, rather than guilt BRD.

Motive, not rational motive.

It is curious that he ignored Locard. I agree with that.

 

[Samson]

Meredith was around. She went in late afternoon to friends. They could have started eating before 5 for all that Amanda knew. Anything written by her in an email after the murder can't be used for her for obvious reasons.

A guilty Amanda would make up the open door story.

From what I've heard this is one of the least important "mistakes" in the Nonsense Report.

We are not trying to establish guilt or innocence in this exercise, we are looking for internal consistency. It is not consistent for Amanda to engage in a long clean up unless she is certain she will not be interrupted, therefore she is unlikely to have committed the murder unless she is happy to be discovered.

 

[Grinder]

Motive, not rational motive.

It is curious that he ignored Locard. I agree with that.

Maybe Amanda's motive is that Meredith called it an apple crumble when she clearly knew it as a crisp. And not made from Braeburns but rather a Granny Smiths. I can't tell how infuriating that is.

 

[anglolawyer]

Maybe Amanda's motive is that Meredith called it an apple crumble when she clearly knew it as a crisp. And not made from Braeburns but rather a Granny Smiths. I can't tell how infuriating that is.

No, I can go one better. Amanda stole her money then realised Meredith would know it was her and went home with Raf to launch a pre-emotive strike with a humongous 31cm (more than a foot) knife machete and, sure enough, Meredith had discovered her money was missing and immediately solved the crime and accused Amanda and got murdered. And Rudy was there. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!

Oh wait. That is the theory!

 

[codyjuneau]

It is more likely that the person who stored the clasp was attempting to make it rot and rust than any other explanation. I cannot think of any reason to expose it to aqueous buffer. This is actually strange, because even if the bra clasp were initially tampered with to obtain the mixed profile, there is no obvious way that later examination would reveal tampering. For example, if the clasp were reswabbed and no more DNA were found, this could be explained by claiming that all of the DNA was extracted on the first pass in 2007.

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Chris, what if they worried or knew that further testing of the clasp would find even more DNA profiles, and/or would produce identifiable profiles that would be exculpatory, like police profiles?
.

 

[Planigale]

Maybe Amanda's motive is that Meredith called it an apple crumble when she clearly knew it as a crisp. And not made from Braeburns but rather a Granny Smiths. I can't tell how infuriating that is.

It was because the CRUMBLE was made with pecans not almonds!

The rational for why Sollecito /Knox would take the phones (not mine - don't shoot the messenger) is that left behind someone would hear the continued ringing from Knox's room, of an unanswered phone, and discover MK's body. Of course Knox knew that her flat mates were away for the long weekend so it is not clear who might hear the ringing. But Nencini says only Knox would have an interest in taking the phones, not Guede. Therefore the fact that the phones were dumped is like the faked break in, the posing of the body, the clean up and the faked theft of €300 proof of Knox's involvement because Guede would have no reason to break in, steal €300, steal phones etc. (We are left with whether the body was moved post mortem, and whether a clean up occurred). Knox would not just smash or switch off the phones because this in itself would be suspicious so the phones had to be left on but dumped in a place where they would not be found.

 

[NancyS]

I agree that trying to put logical reasoning in this case is very difficult. Even if the murder was as most here believe, a case of burglary gone bad, it is still hard to believe that Rudi would go on to murder Meredith. What would his rational motive have been? Yes, he would be in a little trouble for breaking in but if he was the darling of the PLE, not much to worry about.

Even if he jumped her and was raping her, he had to know as a disciple of Locard that he would be caught from everything, he by law (Locard's), had left behind.

It is troubling that the Italians seem to require a better story from the defense than the story from the prosecution making it more of a preponderance of evidence or of pseudo evidence in this case, rather than guilt BRD.

I find it very easy to believe that a violent scene could quickly escalate, if a lone man was trapped in an enclosed space with a terrified and struggling woman. Guede was known to carry a knife - and many knife crimes happen as a result of too much adrenaline and not being able to control your emotions and actions at times of great stress. It's a fairly logical outcome for someone from a chaotic background, who is known to break into houses whilst carrying a knife.

 

[Anode]

It was because the CRUMBLE was made with pecans not almonds!

The rational for why Sollecito /Knox would take the phones (not mine - don't shoot the messenger) is that left behind someone would hear the continued ringing from Knox's room, of an unanswered phone, and discover MK's body. Of course Knox knew that her flat mates were away for the long weekend so it is not clear who might hear the ringing. But Nencini says only Knox would have an interest in taking the phones, not Guede. Therefore the fact that the phones were dumped is like the faked break in, the posing of the body, the clean up and the faked theft of €300 proof of Knox's involvement because Guede would have no reason to break in, steal €300, steal phones etc. (We are left with whether the body was moved post mortem, and whether a clean up occurred). Knox would not just smash or switch off the phones because this in itself would be suspicious so the phones had to be left on but dumped in a place where they would not be found.

Thanks Planigale, and please know that my rant wasn't meant to be directed at you. Just a rant in general!

 

[GWCarver]

I think Guede killed Meredith to shut her up because she started screaming. The same thing probably happened to JonBenet Ramsey.

 

[codyjuneau]

Seriously?? Nencini writes that Amanda must have stole the phones because Rudy had no logical reason?? WTF??

What was Amanda's logical reason? And why did she run half way across town in the direction of Rudy's place to dump them? Why do you steal a phone to dump it anyway? I thought Amanda was supposed to be back at the cottage cleaning up her DNA?? This is just absurd!!

It was a brilliantly staged burglary, she even brought a genuine bonafide burglar!
Sorry, vent...

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Perfect, great vent Anode, LOL. She not only brought her own burglar, and duped him into helping her kill her roommate, she determined his break in MO so she could reproduce it. Pretty impressive for a non premeditated murder.
.

 

[codyjuneau]

I've always thought the idea that Rudy had to have a motive for taking the phones and them dumping them as stupid. Your point that Rudy wasn't thinking straight moments after the murder is what I've always believed.

But if it has to be logical, a real consideration is that Meredith wasn't dead or Rudy wasn't 100 percent convinced that Meredith was dead and somehow he couldn't finish her off. Maybe she was unconscious but still breathing and he couldn't get himself to finish her off. But was afraid that Meredith might somehow regain consciousness and call 9-11 or whatever the Italian equivalent is so Rudy took her phones and locked her door knowing that she would die in time.

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He locked Meredith's bedroom door to delay discovery. Leaving phones in the bedroom would kind of defeat the purpose. Taking the phones and discarding them later is a simple solution.
.

 

[Diocletus]

They are reporting over at IIP that Nencini's conclusion that Amanda lied about receiving Patrick's text while at Sollecito's place is a screw up, based on an internal contradiction in Massei's report.

Bottom line: Nencini says that Amanda couldn't have been at Sollecito's when she received the text; but in fact, the cell tower does service Sollecito's place.

 

[Dan O.]

We know from a knowledge of the ASA, aperture and shutter speed settings on the camera taking the Kercher Luminol photos that the overall exposure levels were something like THREE times the norm for Luminol photography. This means that any levels of photoluminescence would almost certainly have appeared exaggerated in the resultant photos.

You would be able to use this knowledge if the photos hadn't been processed in photoshop the next day.

 

[Matthew Best]

I think Guede killed Meredith to shut her up because she started screaming. The same thing probably happened to JonBenet Ramsey.

Man, that Guede gets around!

 

[acbytesla]

.
He locked Meredith's bedroom door to delay discovery. Leaving phones in the bedroom would kind of defeat the purpose. Taking the phones and discarding them later is a simple solution.
.

Works for me...although I still think it is more than possible that he thought he would sell the phones...and just thought better of it as he headed home. I always thought that Rudy avoided the streets as much as possible and headed down through the ravine and then back up through Parco San Angelo just outside the city walls near his flat. There is a gate opening less than about 50 yards from Rudy's front door but they lock the gate at 10:00 PM. My guess is headed for that gate, but got there late and then headed Northwest along the wall to the Via Sperandio street entrance through the city wall. The phone rang and thought better of keeping the phones and he tossed the phones across the embankment into Lana's Garden.

 

[anglolawyer]

Works for me...although I still think it is more than possible that he thought he would sell the phones...and just thought better of it as he headed home. I always thought that Rudy avoided the streets as much as possible and headed down through the ravine and then back up through Parco San Angelo just outside the city walls near his flat. There is a gate opening less than about 50 yards from Rudy's front door but they lock the gate at 10:00 PM. My guess is headed for that gate, but got there late and then headed Northwest along the wall to the Via Sperandio street entrance through the city wall. The phone rang and thought better of keeping the phones and he tossed the phones across the embankment into Lana's Garden.

Perfectly natural and reasonable theory. Very difficult to think of a similarly plausible one involving Raf and Amanda. If he didn't want the phones ringing he could have turned them off. He stole her money and phones (cards too?) and then, as you say, thought twice about the phones.

Does Nencini really say Amanda stole the money because how else could Rudy know the amount?

 

[Matthew Best]

Man, that Guede gets around!

Though my extensive research leads me to believe that he was only 10 when he allegedly killed Jon-Benet Ramsey, so I may have to reconsider this whole accusation.