Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Wouldn't matter even if this were true. The US does whatever it pleases.

Of course it will--as far as I recall, the Treaty actually contemplates that each country will do as it pleases, because it vests the ultimate authority over extradition in the sole discretion of the respective executive branch.

But my broader point is that when a country enters into an extradition treaty, it assumes good faith on the part of the Treaty partner, just like you assume that your butcher won't sell you rotten meat. What this means, in the case of the US-Italy extradition treaty, is that the US assumes, as a fundamental premise of the Treaty, that Italy won't act on anti-American bias to railroad innocent American citizens. Italy has breached this fundamental and material requirement of the Treaty.
 
What I think is the PGPs are bears of very little brain. They yap about circumstantial evidence because they picked up from the Galati appeal that Hellman had not combined all the evidence and if he had only combined all the evidence it would be clear to any reasonable person that they were guilty beyond all doubt. They think Hellman cheated by cunningly treating each piece of evidence in isolation and refusing to combine it with other pieces of evidence.

This is complicated and at the same time simple. Complicated because life is complicated in inconveniently throwing up infinitely variable sets of circumstances which resist organisation under comprehensive principles which can be easily expressed and universally applied. What the Italians shroud in impenetrable legalese the British express with beguiling simplicity (without having a legal system that does not work):

  1. items of circumstantial evidence should not be viewed in isolation from each other, and
  2. circumstantial evidence tends to work cumulatively

And that's it. If I were instructed by the owner of the apartment to recover damages from Rudy Guede for soiling her bathmat I estimate the chances of success on the civil standard at above 90% and on the criminal standard at above 70%. I have no direct evidence, only the circumstantial kind which most reading here can set out for themselves.

But, the Italians have a statutory threshold test which they apply before any item gets to be combined with the others. Galati set it out in the appeal [p.10 of the PMF translation]

"Our legislature, via the disposition of Article 192 Criminal Procedure Code, has dictated the rules for the evaluation of evidence in the criminal trial. It concerns itself with circumstantial evidence in paragraph 2 of the Article, specifying that: ‚The existence of a fact may not be inferred from circumstantial evidence unless this evidence is of sufficient weight, precise and consistent‛."

This is not a rule that exists in my jurisdiction. It is not necessary or logical. It is, however, Italian law and Hellman applied it to the 'bricks' making up the prosecution case when saying:



and he was attacked for taking a piecemeal approach. This what Popper is on about. Popper is an idiot, though. What he is saying that if you have a piece of lousy evidence it suddenly becomes good because of other pieces of lousy evidence. That is not how it works!

Take Curatolo. Nothing corroborates him. If it did, his evidence, lousy as it is, might acquire some limited value. If there were CCTV footage of them walking down to the piazza, for example, or if somebody else saw them too, or one of them cracked and said they were in the piazza or they dropped something there etc etc. If you had all those things, mind, you probably wouldn't need Curatolo at all. What does not corroborate Curatolo is Nara, say, the phones being found at Lana's or a hundred other things and that is true of most (all?) the evidence - it does not line up and compel you to a particular conclusion. Instead it's a jumble of stuff treading on the toes of other stuff. Of course, it's really worse than that because a good deal of it is simply made up, which, of course, makes it circumstantial evidence of something else entirely!

Popper has latched onto something he or she has not properly understood.

Hmm, because I am relatively new to this, I feel energised. Popper is on the winning Italian side against Sollecito. You and LJ can easily declare the obvious, he is wrong thus of little brain. I wish I could get a handle on why he and his ilk are winning.
 
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Hmm, because I am relatively new to this, I feel energised. Popper is on the winning Italian side against Sollecito. You and LJ can easily declare the obvious, he is wrong thus of little brain. I wish I could get a handle on why he and his elk are winning.

Do you really see it in those terms?
 
Circumstantial evidence

Just one more word on CE. Take these circumstances and consider each one in isolation:

  • a man has scratches on his hands
  • he has make up covering the scratches
  • he bought a lot of air freshener
  • he drove somewhere but took two hours longer than the journey should have required
  • he suddenly stopped texting someone after texting them a lot
  • a woman mysteriously and suddenly disappeared - specifically, she was filmed arriving for work but never reached her desk and was never seen again

Now add 'so what' to each one (except the last). These are the facts of the murder of Suzanne Pilley whose body was never found. The man in question was David Gillroy. They had been having an affair which she broke off but he wanted to continue. She had started seeing someone else. He had the scratches after she disappeared. He bought the air freshener the day she disappeared (or the day after) and made the mysterious journey right after the purchase. He stopped texting her the day she disappeared.

He was found guilty and the case is under appeal (on what grounds I don't know). It is a perfect, simple example of CE at work. Each fact in isolation gets a 'so what' but in combination they make a formidable case. So powerful that not even the failure to find a body prevented a conviction.

Compare the case against A and R. Fine, if the knife stands up and the blood and the cleaning and hanging about in the piazza, and the bathmat print etc etc but it doesn't. None of the facts in Gillroy were disputable. That is not the case here. Also, Gillroy has an overall narrative we can easily grasp - the jilted lover. Compare the ever-lengthening list of absurd and surreal scenarios the Italians keep coming out with that only make them look foolish.
 
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Do you really see it in those terms?
I have been researching and it is ilk not elk, sorry. I just edited accordingly. Yes CoulsdonUK, I of course see it in those terms. Sollecito's assets will be transferred to the Kercher family when the conviction is finally confirmed, and they will immediately pay Maresca all he bills them without question, which is the common experience of those who are tendered a legal bill which they are able to pay.
 
Just one more word on CE. Take these circumstances and consider each one in isolation:

  • a man has scratches on his hands
  • he has make up covering the scratches
  • he bought a lot of air freshener
  • he drove somewhere but took two hours longer than the journey should have required
  • he suddenly stopped texting someone after texting them a lot
  • a woman mysteriously and suddenly disappeared - specifically, she was filmed arriving for work but never reached her desk and was never seen again

Now add 'so what' to each one (except the last). These are the facts of the murder of Suzanne Pilley whose body was never found. The man in question was David Gillroy. They had been having an affair which she broke off but he wanted to continue. She had started seeing someone else. He had the scratches after she disappeared. He bought the air freshener the day she disappeared (or the day after) and made the mysterious journey right after the purchase. He stopped texting her the day she disappeared.

He was found guilty and the case is under appeal (on what grounds I don't know). It is a perfect, simple example of CE at work. Each fact in isolation gets a 'so what' but in combination they make a formidable case. So powerful that not even the failure to find a body prevented a conviction.

Compare the case against A and R. Fine, if the knife stands up and the blood and the cleaning and hanging about in the piazza, and the bathmat print etc etc but it doesn't. None of the facts in Gillroy were disputable. That is not the case here. Also, Gillroy has an overall narrative we can easily grasp - the jilted lover. Compare the ever-lengthening list of absurd and surreal scenarios the Italians keep coming out with that only make them look foolish.
Motive motive motive. Godamm the people who declare motive irrelevant.
 
US & the "death penalty"

The execution was not botched. The brutal murderer is dead. He had a much easier death than his victim.

You are mistaken in your understanding about capital punishment in "America" as you call it. Capital punishment is legal in some states and not legal in others. I don't really care enough to know the who what and wheres.

Perhaps they should have given the poor fellow 30 years and reduced it to 16 right? After all he only kidnapped a high school girl, shot her twice and then buried her alive.

16 years reduced to 8 for good behavior seems about right for the liberal minded. I wonder how you would feel if he had done this to your daughter? He is a lot like Guede...except Guede didn't bother to bury MK alive...he simply left her to die while he went dancing.

Botched? No...they should have pulled the lines and buried him alive...eye for an eye and all that.

Strong stuff RandyN. Putting aside whether people who commit these horrifying acts "deserve to die" (they do, and we all will in time), it ought to be easy to agree that innocent people wrongfully convicted surely don't. So how badly do you really want that blood vengeance? Are you willing to see the innocent occasionally wrongfully executed, for the 'satisfaction' of occasionally seeing the guilty executed?

By the way, notice the states that favor the death penalty. Half the US population doesn't believe in evolution. Guess which half. So we're not all that different from the Italians and their fantasies of satanic orgy killings.

My objection to capital punishment is primarily that human courts are fallible. My second objection to capital punishment is that people are fallible. It's plenty of punishment, and plenty sufficient that the criminals be restrained from hurting anyone else for the rest of their lives. Killing them just makes us all as bad and brutal as they. Does that make me a "liberal"?
 
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Do you really see it in those terms?

Well their convictions seem to be based on a total disregard for the evidence, so it is hard to understand what it is all about.

For a judge who heard and studied the evidence to come forward and say there is no credible evidence that they are guilty, must surely indicate at least reasonable doubt to any right minded person.

I also hate the death penalty and don't think this should be about the rights and wrongs of different legal systems - it is about injustice, which can happen anywhere. I'm amazed that there isn't more outrage - however, I think the tabloids did such damage to Knox/Sollecito that even if people don't believe they are definitely guilty they've still been tainted and are not seen as the innocent victims they are - and there seems to be this idea that they don't even have the right to speak out, as they should just be grateful that they are still alive, unlike Meredith Kercher.
 
Don't get me started on slavery.

That's another high horse issue. 5,000 years of human civilization. Basically everybody does slavery for 4,800 years. Europeans bring slavery to the New World, and weave it into the economies of their colonies. The US starts up, has slavery for 80 years, and then fights a civil war to abolish it resulting in 500,000 deaths. Now, Europeans are all "tsk tsk tsk . . . how could you have continued to have our slavery for those 80 years. Barbarians."

LOL. It's like quitting smoking, giving someone your leftover cigarettes, and then criticizing them for smoking.
 
'procedural facts' warping Nencini 'motivations'

Oh what tangled webs we weave when first we practice to deceive.

On IIP it is being pointed out that Nencini has Amanda stealing the money. He also has her carrying a knife. Meredith does not know of the plot yet because she never mentioned it to the English girls at dinner. Therefore the only bizarre scenario becomes Amanda took the money after Meredith left mid afternoon. Remember also that she knows school is out tomorrow, and can reasonably expect Meredith to know, and stay out late. Therefore she carries a knife to the cottage, not expecting Meredith to be there, but what, just in case she is there and has discovered the money missing. Why take the money at all if expecting it to result in an argument requiring a knife?

Nencini has made a finding of fact that Amanda stole the money, the phones, and struck the fatal blow.
Rudy has been absolved of theft, and touching a knife, because he is a truth teller to Nencini.

I don't believe Amanda stealing the money or carting the knife meshes at all with her beliefs in Meredith's presence or absence.

This is all typical epicyclic doctoring of the available scenarios.

I actually don't think its fair to judge Nencini's opinion against actual truth or even what we would think of as, 'common logic'. Nencini's logic is 'uncommon' because he begins with the logical predicates of 'procedural facts' namely the conclusions of the ISC regarding Guede's fast track trial. Once constrained in this counter factual fairy land, there's no way out from the bottom of the rabbit hole. I'm actually intrigued by Nencini's conundrum. What a pickle, how could anyone find their way out of that box, without looking foolish when running up against the actual facts, evidence, and law?

Poor Rudy? No, Poor Nencini!
 
Thanks that's what I had thought. To me that means if someone at some time, even months before, had had a minute amount of blood on their feet from the shower, for example, then the Luminol could have had a glow but the TMB test could have been negative.

Therefore the "footprints" compatible with Amanda's size of foot could have been blood from a very diluted mixture from ages before, correct? With such a diluted mix would it be possible for no DNA to be found?


No. The Luminol is reported to have give a strong reaction. This preclude your supposition of a very diluted blood. There must be a sufficient concentration of catalyst to give the strong luminol reaction but that catalyst must be in a form such that it is not picked up by the subsequent TMB test. A candidate for the substance is rust from the leaking radiators that has stained the tiles and the ions that are not bound to the tiles have been washed away over years of cleaning.
 
<snip>Yes CoulsdonUK, I of course see it in those terms. Sollecito's assets will be transferred to the Kercher family when the conviction is finally confirmed, and they will immediately pay Maresca all he bills them without question, which is the common experience of those who are tendered a legal bill which they are able to pay.

Well a lot of things have to happen before this case gets anywhere near what you describe above, for example I believe Raffaele and possibly others are being investigated relating to accusations in his book, so for sure more money is being spent on lawyers.
 
Just one more word on CE. Take these circumstances and consider each one in isolation:

  • a man has scratches on his hands
  • he has make up covering the scratches
  • he bought a lot of air freshener
  • he drove somewhere but took two hours longer than the journey should have required
  • he suddenly stopped texting someone after texting them a lot
  • a woman mysteriously and suddenly disappeared - specifically, she was filmed arriving for work but never reached her desk and was never seen again

Now add 'so what' to each one (except the last). These are the facts of the murder of Suzanne Pilley whose body was never found. The man in question was David Gillroy. They had been having an affair which she broke off but he wanted to continue. She had started seeing someone else. He had the scratches after she disappeared. He bought the air freshener the day she disappeared (or the day after) and made the mysterious journey right after the purchase. He stopped texting her the day she disappeared.

He was found guilty and the case is under appeal (on what grounds I don't know). It is a perfect, simple example of CE at work. Each fact in isolation gets a 'so what' but in combination they make a formidable case. So powerful that not even the failure to find a body prevented a conviction.

Compare the case against A and R. Fine, if the knife stands up and the blood and the cleaning and hanging about in the piazza, and the bathmat print etc etc but it doesn't. None of the facts in Gillroy were disputable. That is not the case here. Also, Gillroy has an overall narrative we can easily grasp - the jilted lover. Compare the ever-lengthening list of absurd and surreal scenarios the Italians keep coming out with that only make them look foolish.

Good I'll play:

  • a man has no business being in a cottage, admits to being there
  • he has cuts on hand
  • he has been know to be a burglar.
  • his hand/finger/foot prints are found in blood next to murder victim.
  • he has been know to carry and threaten people with knife.
  • his DNA was found all over murder room, on and in victim.
  • he went dancing later that night and then fled the country.

I have of course missed some. Why didn't they put those fact together and with as much weight as the "evidence" against AK and RS?
 
I have been researching and it is ilk not elk, sorry. I just edited accordingly. Yes CoulsdonUK, I of course see it in those terms. Sollecito's assets will be transferred to the Kercher family when the conviction is finally confirmed, and they will immediately pay Maresca all he bills them without question, which is the common experience of those who are tendered a legal bill which they are able to pay.

That's not going to happen. Without doubt, the assets of the defendants, to the extent they have any left, are placed where Maresca can't get them.
 
Slavery in US prior to 1776 -

That's another high horse issue. 5,000 years of human civilization. Basically everybody does slavery for 4,800 years. Europeans bring slavery to the New World, and weave it into the economies of their colonies. The US starts up, has slavery for 80 years, and then fights a civil war to abolish it resulting in 500,000 deaths. Now, Europeans are all "tsk tsk tsk . . . how could you have continued to have our slavery for those 80 years. Barbarians."

LOL. It's like quitting smoking, giving someone your leftover cigarettes, and then criticizing them for smoking.

The year 1776, is the founding of the USA as a single country, formed from a group a separate state colonies. But slavery existed well before 1776 in the US territory. The perception of what constitutes 'civilized behavior' is a forward moving target. I'm quite certain our age will be seen as the most barbarous and ignorant in human history, by virtue of our collective suicidal unwillingness to face up to or recognize our environmental responsibilities. Perhaps off topic, but seemed worth a mention.
 
Motive motive motive. Godamm the people who declare motive irrelevant.

Thats another one they don't get. Motive is just another item of CE. I cheated when I omitted it from the list in the Pillay case. The PGPs always say - you don't have to prove motive - neener, neener. But this is a stupid, misconceived answer which misses the point. It is not our case that, as no credible motive can be shown, there is in law no case to answer. Rather it is that the circumstantial case is weakened by the absence of a motive.

Think of the word 'motive' - it is something that moves, that impels. To get up, walk about, eat, sleep etc we need a motive. There is always a motive (just about). For murder it needs to be something pretty big because of all the social conditioning, moral and legal taboos surrounding it. So it's a huge point that Amanda and Raffaele had no reason to kill Meredith and because it is, it's why we read so much on the point from Massei, Nencini, Mignini et al They don't think it doesn't matter, do they? And from the guilters themselves, when they forget their own arguments and indulge in another bout of spewing and vomiting hate tending to show what malign and corrupt individuals the two are.
 
Good I'll play:

  • a man has no business being in a cottage, admits to being there
  • he has cuts on hand
  • he has been know to be a burglar.
  • his hand/finger/foot prints are found in blood next to murder victim.
  • he has been know to carry and threaten people with knife.
  • his DNA was found all over murder room, on and in victim.
  • he went dancing later that night and then fled the country.

I have of course missed some. Why didn't they put those fact together and with as much weight as the "evidence" against AK and RS?

Well played indeed! That is exactly how to do it. Mig's mob bent themselves to the task of down-playing, obscuring, deflecting away from and lying about this list - to which we can all probably add some more points, like Guede's odd behaviour, his falling asleep in the toilet downstairs, the fact the phones were found in a garden on his route home (if he were trying to get home without being seen) that he was unemployed and had no money, his lies about fixing to meet her, the putative sperm - truly an overwhelming case and a real headache for the boys in blue.
 
The point is if she knew everyone was away, an innocent Amanda immediately suspects a break in with the front door open, and checks the house, finds the mess in Filomena's room, rings Raffaele who calls the police directly. Because she did none of this, but mentally concluded someone was home, Nencini is wrong to declare she knew she had all the time in the world and that no one would be home. He made it up.

Meredith was around. She went in late afternoon to friends. They could have started eating before 5 for all that Amanda knew. Anything written by her in an email after the murder can't be used for her for obvious reasons.

A guilty Amanda would make up the open door story.

From what I've heard this is one of the least important "mistakes" in the Nonsense Report.
 
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