Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Bill Williams]

Interesting article from the co-author of Raffaele’s book, must admit I haven’t seen anything about the publication of the Florence motivations on any news channels here.

Do you know whether Hellmann or V & C were mentioned or whether any of their findings made it into the motivations?

I don't read Italian and am relying on translations of snippets and English language commentary.

What I remember is that he said that Hellmann was filled with a mass of illogic. Coming from Nencini, that's quite the statement! !!!!

By saying what he says about DNA, he's de facto ditched C&V. He's shown his expertise in this department by now saying Raffaele's DNA is on the knife.

I think Conti & Vecchiotti breathed a sigh of relief to be trashed by Nencini.

 

[acbytesla]

Mach why do you do this? This is not a matter of opinion but of objective fact. Blood will contain about 1000 nucleated cells per micro litre vs, about 1 nuclei per micro litre of muscle, cartilage far less. As previously discussed most shed epithelials have apoptosed so do not have analysable DNA. Muscle cells are not small they are several millimetres in length (a single neurone with a single nucleus may be a metre long). Most cells have better things to do in life than reproduction, they have to earn a living, muscle cells are full of muscle stuff, they don't reproduce so they don't need much nuclear DNA. In comparison white blood cells are small and pretty much all nuclei.

Hemostix (a TMB based test) will detect 1 nano litre of blood as a dried stain so about 1000 RBC and 1 WBC worth. (i.e. a volume of blood that contains about 1 copy of a genome or about 6 picograms DNA, LCNDNA is below 200 picograms), any less than this and there will be no DNA to be amplified! The sensitivity for haemoglobin testing for blood is greater than DNA testing for blood; standard typing requires about 0.5 - 2ng DNA i.e. about 100 times the detection limit for hemostix. Another difference is haemoglobin is quite resistant to degradation so will hang around in a testable state. You need a full genome to type, you cannot type less than say 6 pg. Even this level is really experimental. So you cannot do it on 4 or 5 pg.

ref J Forensic Sci, May 2008, Vol. 53, No. 3 doi: 10.1111/j.1556-4029.2008.00727.x

Interesting that whilst you do not accept there can be secondary transfer of DNA you allow it for starch. They should not have been using latex gloves as these tend to transfer DNA, but should have been using plastic gloves, which reduce the risk of DNA contamination.

I am grateful that you agree that the DNA on the handle from Knox is likely to have been deposited at a time subsequent to the murder and cleaning of the knife if it was the murder weapon so that no conclusion can be drawn from its presence.

PS for Grinder depending on circumstances Luminol can detect haemoglobin at about a ten fold greater dilution than hemostix.

Don't you get it Planigale? Machiavelli isn't talking about "actual facts" but "procedural facts" which of course means whatever the judges want it to mean.

 

[GWCarver]

At this point I don't know what to think of this Motivations report. Why in the world did Nencini put in statements that are so easily discredited? Why put in that Raf's DNA was found on the murder knife? As far as I know that was never introduced as evidence at trial. So why put in something that the defense can point out and use against him? There are apparently many other statements in there like the one about it being Amanda's shoe print in the murder room. That was never introduced at trial either. Right?

It would have been sufficient and probably easier for the ISC to be as terse as possible and just say things along the lines of we believe Stefanoni and discredit C & V. If he wanted no controversy wouldn't he have just stuck to known "facts" and "evidence" available from the court transcripts??

This is just weird.

If the translations we're working with are correct, it seems to me it is at least as likely Nencini made these mistakes on purpose as as it would be he made them in error. If Nencini is taking a dive, the "why" is puzzling, to say the least.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

I don't read Italian and am relying on translations of snippets and English language commentary.

What I remember is that he said that Hellmann was filled with a mass of illogic. Coming from Nencini, that's quite the statement! !!!!

By saying what he says about DNA, he's de facto ditched C&V. He's shown his expertise in this department by now saying Raffaele's DNA is on the knife.

I think Conti & Vecchiotti breathed a sigh of relief to be trashed by Nencini.

The Italian Supreme court pretty much slammed Hellmann’s judicial logic and annulled his verdict, can’t see that happening this time round. So none of C & V conclusions found their way into the Florence motivations, judicially speaking it’s like the Perugia appeal never happened, well apart from pro-innocence posters.

Have you heard anything about Raffaele since the publication?

 

[anglolawyer]

"Logical" is actually an Italian weasel word. It has no substantive meaning as they use it. It's just something that they believe makes them impervious to criticism or attack. You can remove "logical" from any Italian phrase or statement and it will mean just the same thing. It's like saying "quite."

Yes. That is my impression too. I was joking earlier about 'logical connections' between items of evidence but I really have no idea what it means. I call bull ****.

 

[Bill Williams]

The Italian Supreme court pretty much slammed Hellmann’s judicial logic and annulled his verdict, can’t see that happening this time round. So none of C & V conclusions found their way into the Florence motivations, judicially speaking it’s like the Perugia appeal never happened, well apart from pro-innocence posters.

Have you heard anything about Raffaele since the publication?

The pro-innocence posters are looking like beacons of rationality right now!!!

Raffaele is on CNN tomorrow night. Some Italian newspapers are "coming out" supporting Raffaele. Hellmann is being vocal too.

For my money the internecine war is about to go public.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

If the translations we're working with are correct, it seems to me it is at least as likely Nencini made these mistakes on purpose as as it would be he made them in error. If Nencini is taking a dive, the "why" is puzzling, to say the least.

It’s not just a question of translation, but legal interpretation, it will be interesting to read the defence teams appeal.

 

[Bill Williams]

The Italian Supreme court pretty much slammed Hellmann’s judicial logic and annulled his verdict, can’t see that happening this time round. So none of C & V conclusions found their way into the Florence motivations, judicially speaking it’s like the Perugia appeal never happened, well apart from pro-innocence posters.

Have you heard anything about Raffaele since the publication?

Nencini has shown he is not tied to the ISC's ruling. He's ditched "sex-game gone wrong", as well as Crini's "dispute over pooh in the toilet."

Instead, Nencini has invented out of whole cloth..... ooops, not quite correct: Nencini has believed the sole proponent of the "arguing over rent money" motive.

Rudy Guede.

Yup. He say that. Rudy is to be believed that Amanda and Meredith were arguing over rent money. Contrast this to Massei, who called Guede a consummate liar.

Rudy Guede didn't even give this as evidence at any trial. IIRC it was in a police report, which not even Mignini believed.

The reason Nencini abandoned the ISC's marching orders about "sex game gone wrong" is that Nencini does not believe that Meredith would have ever engaged in one, even if it went right.

On that all of us can agree.

Nencini has taken the knife out of Guede's hand, and put it in Knox's hand. Yet Knox did not have cut marks on her hand typical of people who kill with a knife.

Guede did. Nencini said Guede got those after leaving Perugia, or some such nonsense pulled straight out of thin air.

I have as yet not heard about what Nencini makes of Guede's DNA being found inside the victim's vagina.

Right now, the C&V report, regardless of its judicial place in Italy, is the beacon of sanity.

It is just hard to believe that Nencini can write this kind of nonsense.

I know you eschew expressing opinions, CoulsdonUK, but c'mon, how do you stomach this stuff?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

The pro-innocence posters are looking like beacons of rationality right now!!!

I guess it is unfortunate this “rationality” hasn’t translated into a different verdict, still the discussion goes on.

Raffaele is on CNN tomorrow night. Some Italian newspapers are "coming out" supporting Raffaele.

Oh okay I’ll try and track that down.

Hellmann is being vocal too.

I get the impression is reputation judicially speaking as suffered, hopefully he is enjoying his retirement.

For my money the internecine war is about to go public.

You still have you hand in Grinders pocket?

Well as I said a while ago, I can’t recall were I read it but Raffaele and possibly others may be under investigation based on extracts from his book, you could be right, but I see it more as a battle not a war.

 

[Samson]

Nencini wrote that the accusation against Lumumba was "indispensable in understanding the crime" and that the accusation "cannot be separated from the murder."

Is the court that ruled this inadmissible the same court that is hearing the final appeal?
What is Nencini up to with gross errors in the report, and this, or is he just a lazy fool?

 

[Diocletus]

The Italian Supreme court pretty much slammed Hellmann’s judicial logic and annulled his verdict, can’t see that happening this time round. So none of C & V conclusions found their way into the Florence motivations, judicially speaking it’s like the Perugia appeal never happened, well apart from pro-innocence posters.

Really? But what about Curatalo's second testimony? What about the other witnesses that Hellmann heard, like Allessi, Aviello and Quintavalle? Even Rudy? Did their words go poof? Do you think that if the ISC closes its eyes, covers its ears, and stamps its feet, and yells "squirrel!", it can make everyone forget about it? All because Hellmann wasn't "logical"? BTW, what kind of standard of review is that, since the word only means what the utterer wants it to?

 

[Diocletus]

Nencini wrote that the accusation against Lumumba was "indispensable in understanding the crime" and that the accusation "cannot be separated from the murder."

Is the court that ruled this inadmissible the same court that is hearing the final appeal?
What is Nencini up to with gross errors in the report, and this, or is he just a lazy fool?

Well, he's certainly teed up the deprivation of counsel issue for the ECHR. Couldn't ask for anything clearer than this.

 

[acbytesla]

Nencini has shown he is not tied to the ISC's ruling. He's ditched "sex-game gone wrong", as well as Crini's "dispute over pooh in the toilet."

Instead, Nencini has invented out of whole cloth..... ooops, not quite correct: Nencini has believed the sole proponent of the "arguing over rent money" motive.

Rudy Guede.

Yup. He say that. Rudy is to be believed that Amanda and Meredith were arguing over rent money. Contrast this to Massei, who called Guede a consummate liar.

Rudy Guede didn't even give this as evidence at any trial. IIRC it was in a police report, which not even Mignini believed.

The reason Nencini abandoned the ISC's marching orders about "sex game gone wrong" is that Nencini does not believe that Meredith would have ever engaged in one, even if it went right.

On that all of us can agree.
Nencini has taken the knife out of Guede's hand, and put it in Knox's hand. Yet Knox did not have cut marks on her hand typical of people who kill with a knife.

Guede did. Nencini said Guede got those after leaving Perugia, or some such nonsense pulled straight out of thin air.

I have as yet not heard about what Nencini makes of Guede's DNA being found inside the victim's vagina.

Right now, the C&V report, regardless of its judicial place in Italy, is the beacon of sanity.

It is just hard to believe that Nencini can write this kind of nonsense.

I know you eschew expressing opinions, CoulsdonUK, but c'mon, how do you stomach this stuff?

The one part I disagree with Bill is that Meredith could never have engaged in group sex. I'm not saying that she had or ever will, just that we are not privy to that information. Most people would be shocked to find out who has done group sex. The people who do, usually keep it well hidden even and very often especially hidden from their families and friends. I don't agree with the sex orgy gone awry or the dispute over stolen rent money. There is no evidence to support either theory. But that doesn't seem to matter in Italy.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Really? But what about Curatalo's second testimony? What about the other witnesses that Hellmann heard, like Allessi, Aviello and Quintavalle? Even Rudy? Did their words go poof? Do you think that if the ISC closes its eyes, covers its ears, and stamps its feet, and yells "squirrel!", it can make everyone forget about it? All because Hellmann wasn't "logical"? BTW, what kind of standard of review is that, since the word only means what the utterer wants it to?

Judicially speaking, Hellmann does not exist, of course you and others can and will speak of Hellmann and the C & V findings but they will not play apart in the remanding Italian judicial process.

 

[Bill Williams]

This just in from an Italian speaker in Italy.....

Nencini implies that Conti-Vecchiotti should be ignored. Yet Nencini has written in his motivations that of the various Y-Haplotypes found on Meredith's bra-clasp, one is from Sollecito, one is from Silenzi, and, some are from "some of Meredith's female friends."

Let's just sit on that thought for a minute. Then let's give an opinion on Conti & Vecchiotti in relation to Nencini. And I am not speaking of this being proof of contamination.....

Also.... Nencini writes that Raffaele calls the Carabinieri AFTER the postal police arrive. Why? Because there is a moment when Meredith's door is being kicked in that he is unaccounted for.

Let's all think on that one, and just pause for some "logical" thought. I mean, Hellmann's acquittals were overturned because of his alleged lack of logic.

More later - straight from Italy.

 

[Bill Williams]

Judicially speaking, Hellmann does not exist, of course you and others can and will speak of Hellmann and the C & V findings but they will not play apart in the remanding Italian judicial process.

If true, that does not speak well for the remaining process. C-UK.... how can you have any respect for this process?

I'm just asking.

 

[Planigale]

FWIW while I can be bothered to do this TMB based assay kits can detect haemoglobin at a level of about 500pg / micro litre. This is similar to recommended DNA for typing. Luminol can under lab but not field conditions detect haemoglobin at about 50pg / micro litre.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

If true, that does not speak well for the remaining process. C-UK.... how can you have any respect for this process?

I'm just asking.

Earlier today Sky News was reporting of a botched execution in America.

America does not require my agreement or respect, it will act like any other western sovereign state.

Just saying.

 

[Samson]

Judicially speaking, Hellmann does not exist, of course you and others can and will speak of Hellmann and the C & V findings but they will not play apart in the remanding Italian judicial process.

CoulsdonUK, a couple of points here. Do you think at extradition hearings in the US that Hellmann would not be considered? I don't know the answer, someone will, but I suggest he would be of deep interest because of the inevitable discussion around double jeopardy, irrespective of arguments of applicability. There is an intense urge, vehement even, by PGP to close out discussion of Hellmann. They are playing the three monkeys frankly.

Secondly, as I mentioned above, I believe the same court that deemed the November 5th interrogation inadmissible, is hearing the final appeal, and Nencini has pinned his motivation to the mast of that interrogation.
Judge Hellmann was asked what his opinion of the November 5 interrogation was.

What was his answer?
It was very interesting.
ETA to avoid confusion, he said he had not read it because it was ruled inadmissible.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the lack of a confirmatory test is another error

FWIW while I can be bothered to do this TMB based assay kits can detect haemoglobin at a level of about 500pg / micro litre. This is similar to recommended DNA for typing. Luminol can under lab but not field conditions detect haemoglobin at about 50pg / micro litre.

I did a survey of the literature for the minimum limits of detection for TMB, luminol, and actual confirmatory tests not that long ago (link). Forensic chemists are clear that luminol is not a confirmatory test, and this is another area where Nencini is parading his ignorance. One of the reasons why Gregory Taylor is a free man is because the state of North Carolina (CoulsdonUK, North Carolina is in the United States) realized that the Kastle-Meyer test is also just a presumptive test, and that the lack of DNA is evidence against a stain's being human blood. Italy could look to the US or to Australia (Lindy Chamberlain) for guidance in the area of presumptive versus confirmatory testing.