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Zero Tolerance Makes Zero Sense

CBL4

Master Poster
Joined
Nov 11, 2003
Messages
2,346
High school kids drink, particularly during prom season. We might not be comfortable with that, but it's going to happen. It always has. The question, then, is do we want them drinking in their cars, in parking lots, in vacant lots and in rented motel rooms? Or do we want them drinking at parties with adult supervision, where they're denied access to the roads once they enter?
...
Many parents have decided to take a realist's approach. They're throwing parties for their kids and their friends. They serve alcohol at these parties, but they also collect car keys to make sure no one drives home until the next morning. Their logic makes sense: The kids are going to drink; it's better that they do it in a controlled, supervised environment.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/08/AR2005080801148.html

Of course, MADD and the police are not happy about this trend. A Virginia couple was sentenced to 8 years in jail (reduced to 8 months) for such a party. The police have decided to raid parties like this without warrants and force everyone to have a breathalyzers tests. In one case, the parents refused to allow the test and the police cordoned off the block and administered the test when the guest left (no alcohol was served at this party.)

CBL

(Darat: Corrected the formatting.)
 
I saw that guy who was convicted on a "news" show. He was not supervising. He wasn't even in the room with the kids while they were drinking. They could have drank themselves into a coma for all he knew what was going on.
 
At best, you prevent the kids from drinking and driving for one night. At worst, you are encouraging underage drinking.
 
What's wrong with seniors in high school drinking without driving? The drinking age for beer was 18 for me. The only problem with this was the driving part not the drinking part.

BTW, contrary to popular opinion people under 21 are a lot less likely to drink than older people. The highest DUI rate has always been for 22-24 year olds. I think it has something to do with getting out of college.

CBL
 
Tony said:


America is no longer a place of freedom.

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Right. It's often claimed to be a land of freedom but in comparison with other Western countries it seems to be quite restrictive. The whole gun issue appears to be a red herring.
 
CBL4 said:
Their logic makes sense: The kids are going to drink; it's better that they do it in a controlled, supervised environment.

I'm not sure the logic is sound or valid in all cases, though. I can, for instance, frame analogies which contradict this, quite easily, but I'm not sure that they are unflawed or appropriately similar enough to be comparable.

For instance, I could say "the Hoover Dam is going to break anyway, so why not pull it down a piece at a time?" That is obviously not the best answer. Why not repair it, rather than assist its destruction, enabling it to do still more damage to people and property?

Of course, MADD and the police are not happy about this trend.

I can't expect the police to be happy about it in areas where the drinking age is 21+. It's a violation of the law, and the argument "they're going to do it anyway" is highly flawed in that case. Just because a person is prone to breaking a particular law is no justification to assist them in that illegality.

If, however, the legal drinking age is 18, it does make sense for parents to supervise such parties. But by "supervise," I mean to closely monitor the amount of drinking (so as to avoid grads "drinking themselves into a coma"), and to force the party-goers to stay until the next day, taking their keys and not allowing them to drive (or even walk) away, until sober, sobriety being the key, here.

The police have decided to raid parties like this without warrants and force everyone to have a breathalyzer tests.

I'd protest that as a basic violation of "search and seizure," if it was attempted in my home. If police want to come into my home, they'd better have a warrant. Otherwise, they need to wait outside. Exceptions, however, abound. If someone was in the house beating the crap out of me, for example, I'd sure want the police to break in and stop him or her, Constitutional rights notwithstanding.

In one case, the parents refused to allow the test and the police cordoned off the block and administered the test when the guests left (no alcohol was served at this party.)

That's different, though. The police have a jurisdiction over public streets that they don't have over my home, and I expect the police to keep the streets as safe as possible for me. What you do in your home, to a certain extent, is your business. What you do on the streets where I might be, is my business. And if no alcohol was served, and everyone was sober, then they have nothing to worry about.

Just because alcohol wasn't "served" at this particular party doesn't mean some of the graduates didn't have alcohol, or other intoxicating substances, though. I'm not so old that I don't remember how easy it is to get pills, pot, acid, etc. into someone's house without Mommy and Daddy being any the wiser.

I know that there might be "sobriety checkpoints" on the streets on New Year's Eve, for example, so if I'm smart, I'll party at home, and stay at home, and everyone is happy and relatively safe. But I'm also of legal drinking age, so if I keep it at home, it's no one's business but mine.

The best answer is, of course, the hardest answer: teach children from a young age about alcohol and all its effects, benefits, and dangers, and rear them to be good critical thinkers, rather than to rely on their emotions for decision-making. But who has time to do that? (she said sarcastically.)

In general, the argument that "someone is going to do a thing anyway, so why not assist them in it," is not logical. It's too circumstantial, meaning it largely depends on what the thing is, and what effects or results the activity might have for the perpetrator and for others.
 
LucyR said:
The whole gun issue appears to be a red herring.

I agree. When was the last time you heard a politician advocate that current gun control measures be repealed? It seems that they just oppose more gun control measures simply to get votes.
 
LucyR said:
Right. It's often claimed to be a land of freedom but in comparison with other Western countries it seems to be quite restrictive. The whole gun issue appears to be a red herring.

Can you provide a comparison? I'm not being a smartass but genuenly curious.

As for the subject line:

If the other parents of the kids know of the party and the drinking, where's the crime? If however the kids go driving around that's a problem.

Drinking isn't that big of a deal, getting drunk is.
 
I have to admit I don´t understand the rationale behind the different age thresholds in the US.

As I understand it, generally (varying from state to state) in the US you can get a driver´s license or own a gun at 16 - but you have to wait till you´re 21 before you can have a beer...

In Germany, it´s 16 years for drinks, 18 years (and a much more throrough driver´s ed) for a driver´s license, and 18 plus lots of bureaucracy for a gun.
To me, that seems about right in relation to one another...
 
In CT if you serve alcohol to a person under 21 it is a felony. That's the law, you don't like it, change it.
 
Chaos said:
I have to admit I don´t understand the rationale behind the different age thresholds in the US.

As I understand it, generally (varying from state to state) in the US you can get a driver´s license or own a gun at 16 - but you have to wait till you´re 21 before you can have a beer...

In Germany, it´s 16 years for drinks, 18 years (and a much more throrough driver´s ed) for a driver´s license, and 18 plus lots of bureaucracy for a gun.
To me, that seems about right in relation to one another...

16 for a drivers' license.
18 to own a rifle or shotgun.
18 to vote.
21 to own a handgun.
21 to drink.

You know, those last two leave me wondering...
 
I would have no objection to my children doing this as long as I know about it in advanced. I would be happy to have a small number of kids doing it at my house as long as their parents are OK with it.

In this day and age, I would probably need to get the parents permission in writing and notarized before I did anything. I am not in the mood to go to jail because of our inane laws.

CBL
 
When I was in college the drinking age for beer was 18 and hard liquor was 21.

When I was 18, beer and pot were fairly easy to get. Other illegal drugs were a little more difficult. Hard liquor frequently took advanced planning to get.

CBL
 
CBL4 said:
BTW, contrary to popular opinion people under 21 are a lot less likely to drink than older people. The highest DUI rate has always been for 22-24 year olds. I think it has something to do with getting out of college.

CBL

And you don't think that has something to do with the law?!?

ETA: And when you say the highest DUI rate has always been for 22 - 24 year olds, then I need to see evidence of before and after the drinking age was changed from 18 to 21 and DUI rates.
 
Tony said:
And that's one night none of these kids will get killed in a drunk driving accident.

A good reason to call in the national guard if there ever was one. :rolleyes:

I am saying that by condoning the kids' drinking at home, you may be actually increasing their likelihood of drinking outside the home, and thereby actually increasing the chances of them getting killed in a drunk driving accident.
 
CBL4 said:
BTW, contrary to popular opinion people under 21 are a lot less likely to drink than older people. The highest DUI rate has always been for 22-24 year olds. I think it has something to do with getting out of college.

CBL

Apart from being illegal, underage drinking poses a high risk to both the individual and society (3). For example, the rate of alcohol–related traffic crashes is greater for drivers ages 16 to 20 than for drivers age 21 and older (4).

Drinking and Driving. Motor vehicle crashes are the leading cause of death among youth ages 15 to 20 (8). Adolescents already are at increased risk through their relative lack of driving experience (9), and drivers younger than 21 are more susceptible than older drivers to the alcohol–induced impairment of driving skills (4,9). The rate of fatal crashes among alcohol–involved drivers between 16 and 20 years old is more than twice the rate for alcohol–involved drivers 21 and older (10).


http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa59.htm


From the same article:

Suicide. Alcohol use interacts with conditions such as depression and stress to contribute to suicide, the third leading cause of death among people between the ages of 14 and 25 (11,12). In one study, 37 percent of eighth grade females who drank heavily reported attempting suicide, compared with 11 percent who did not drink (13).

Adolescents also are vulnerable to alcohol–induced brain damage, which could contribute to poor performance at school or work. In addition, youthful drinking is associated with an increased likelihood of developing alcohol abuse or dependence later in life.
 
CBL4 said:
Of course, MADD and the police are not happy about this trend. A Virginia couple was sentenced to 8 years in jail (reduced to 8 months) for such a party. The police have decided to raid parties like this without warrants and force everyone to have a breathalyzers tests. In one case, the parents refused to allow the test and the police cordoned off the block and administered the test when the guest left (no alcohol was served at this party.)


I tend to agree with MADD and the police on this. Although I think 8 years (or even 8 months) is a pretty severe sentence for this, I wouldn't appreciate somone "supervising" a party like this for my kid.

If you think the laws on the legal drinking age are wrong, then the solution isn't to find nice ways to break the law, the solution is to change the law in a way you think is fair.
 
Chaos said:
I have to admit I don´t understand the rationale behind the different age thresholds in the US.

As I understand it, generally (varying from state to state) in the US you can get a driver´s license or own a gun at 16 - but you have to wait till you´re 21 before you can have a beer...

In Germany, it´s 16 years for drinks, 18 years (and a much more throrough driver´s ed) for a driver´s license, and 18 plus lots of bureaucracy for a gun.
To me, that seems about right in relation to one another...

While most European countries issue driver's licenses at age 18, the difficulty of passing the test, high insurance costs and wide use of trains and buses all mean that young people generally begin to drive much later than in the United States.

"They start drinking at 16, but they cannot drive until they are 18," said Florence Berteletti Kemp, a communications officer in Brussels, Belgium, for Eurocare, a private group that campaigns to reduce Europeans' alcohol consumption. "I think in the U.S., there is an expectation to have your own car. It's not that young people in Europe are more careful. It's that they haven't got the car."

http://www.detnews.com/2005/commuting/0502/01/A09-70313.htm
 
The rate of fatal crashes among alcohol–involved drivers between 16 and 20 years old is more than twice the rate for alcohol–involved drivers 21 and older (10).
This does not rebut my claim because it lumps 22 year olds with 65 year olds.

CBL
 

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