Yoga and the "meridians theory"

fallout

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Hey guys,

Is anyone here an insider as to know how acceptable is the eastern theory of the energetic meridians as it relates to explain how acupuncture works?

I mean, in bad english, I know: How experimentally verifiable is this theory? Is it possible to verify that, by placing pins at the points which are described on acupuncture map of the meridians, it produces without doubt, pain relief (and in some cases, cure) in the regions or limbs in which this meridians are claimed to be linked to?

I don´t think I could express what I want to know in an optimal way, due to my language limitations. But I hope you all understood it well enough as to shed me some light on this subject.

p.s.: Sorry I commited a mistake on the title of the thread, it was meant to be "acupuncture" instead of "yoga". My appologies.
 
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So far as I know, even with all the incredible medical imaging technology we have, no one has ever observed "meridians" or "nodes" or "chi" or anything else to do with acupuncture.
 
fallout said:
p.s.: Sorry I commited a mistake on the title of the thread, it was meant to be "acupuncture" instead of "yoga". My appologies.
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Acupuncture or yoga. It makes no difference. It has no foundation in reality
 
Bikewer said:
So far as I know, even with all the incredible medical imaging technology we have, no one has ever observed "meridians" or "nodes" or "chi" or anything else to do with acupuncture.
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And I know that. I´m asking about how verifiable it is the claim that the map is right about the pain relief based on the premise that they have the "correct" map of the "meridians".
 
kerikiwi said:
Acupuncture or yoga. It makes no difference. It has no foundation in reality
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That´s quite a sloppy statement. We can argue like ad-infinitum on what is "reality". But , i´m pretty sure that yoga is effective at least for relaxing and stretching.

You can argue though, whether all the talk about chakras and energy body is bunk or not, that wouldn´t be sloppy, and I´m not taking any positions about it because I really don´t know!

Also , acupuncture is widely-used and recognized as an effective procedure for pain relief. Either you like it or not. Why it produces that effect? I don´t know. And am not taking positions about things I just don´t know.
 
'Placebo' acupuncture is as effective as 'true'.

Meaning that needles placed in random locations, rather than on the supposed meridians, are just as effective. There for, there is no fact that 'meridians' even exist experientially. Or otherwise.
 
Thanks casebro, where did you read that? I´m trying to spot this over the web, I found that at WIKI but i´m still trying to spot the sources.
 
My familiarity in this subject is limited to a year I spent dating a student of Chinese medicine/acupuncture/herbology. The classes she took were as immersive and intense as "real" Western medical training, and consequently I got a constant eyeful/earful/brain-full of the subject, as she studied, read, talked about the subject, had me quiz her, etc. etc.

My understanding, at the end of all this, is that most indications of Chinese medicine's efficacy are purely anecdotal. In other words, patients report benefits that cannot necessarily be quantified or documented in a scientific way, such as pain reduction and amelioration of complaints such as muscular, bone- and organ-related discomforts/aches/stiffness. These results can be explained both by the placebo effect and by a release of endorphins into the bloodstream in reaction to the minute entry of the needle into the tissue.

There is no hard evidence for the existence of meridians or acupuncture points, but some points are located at nerve clusters which might explain how an endorphin rush would ameliorate pain/stiffness/aches in the area.
 
Vortigern99 said:
There is no hard evidence for the existence of meridians or acupuncture points, but some points are located at nerve clusters which might explain how an endorphin rush would ameliorate pain/stiffness/aches in the area.
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That´s pretty interesting, thanks!
 
http://www.ncahf.org/pp/acu.html

From that source:

Richardson and Vincent analyzed 28 studies of effect of acupuncture on pain, all published between 1973 and 1986 in English language peer-reviewed journals. Fifteen showed no difference in effectiveness between acupuncture and control groups. Thirteen showed some effectiveness for acupuncture over control groups, but not all controls were the same. (Some were compared to sham acupuncture, some to medical therapy, etc.) Overall, the differences were small [12-13].

The NCAHF Task Force on Acupuncture evaluated the above studies, as well as more recent ones, and found that reported benefits varied inversely with quality of the experimental design. The greater the benefit claimed, the worse the experimental design. Most studies that showed positive effects used too few subjects to be statistically significant. The best designed experiments - those with the highest number of controls on variables - found no difference between acupuncture and control groups.

In 1989, three Dutch epidemiologists reported similar conclusions about 91 separate clinical trials of acupuncture for various disorders. They also found that the stricter the controls, the smaller the difference between acupuncture and control groups [14].

Acupuncture is being used in drug and alcohol rehabilitation programs. Because there are serious flaws in the way studies on rehabilitation have been performed, the results cannot be considered valid.

A successful medical procedure should be consistently effective in a large majority of trials, and be repeatable in the hands of most therapists. Acupuncture does not satisfy these basic criteria.

The American Medical Association's Council on Scientific Affairs stated in a 1981 report that since acupuncture is an experimental procedure, it should be performed only in research settings by licensed physicians or others under their direct supervision. The report urged state medical societies to seek appropriate laws to restrict the performance of acupuncture to research settings [15].
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:)
 
666 said:
Report your OP to the Mods and ask them nicely to change the title.
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I was thinking about that. But I doubt that it will have any relevance right now as I found what I was looking for. In fact i´m sorry about my poor googling skills. If I had found those sources before, I wouldnt even bother creating such a topic. :)
 
I've always want to learn yoga or tai-chi as exercises for the body - all that stretching and arm-waving is at least some kind of activity, even if it is low-impact and non aerobic.

But I always got turned off after a few sessions because the leader either tried to impress his or her own teachings of "Spirituality" or religion, or tried to pitch homeopathy, diet supplements, or woo-woo devices (magnetic exercise mats made entirely of blessed bamboo, for example) at budget-busting prices.

Meridians are just part of the woo.
 
Fnord said:
But I always got turned off after a few sessions because the leader either tried to impress his or her own teachings of "Spirituality" or religion, or tried to pitch homeopathy, diet supplements, or woo-woo devices (magnetic exercise mats made entirely of blessed bamboo, for example) at budget-busting prices.
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Yeah i´m sick tired of this $pirituality talk. My sister was participating on a course for forming up Yoga teachers. She left after 1 month as they grew more and more interested on the students money and delivering less and less professionalism. I recognize though that there are good and honest teachers and gurus. Honest at least to the point that they seriously believe that what they teach is true, which is obviously not the case of 99% of the money-eating ones.
 
fallout said:
That´s quite a sloppy statement. We can argue like ad-infinitum on what is "reality". But , i´m pretty sure that yoga is effective at least for relaxing and stretching.

You can argue though, whether all the talk about chakras and energy body is bunk or not, that wouldn´t be sloppy, and I´m not taking any positions about it because I really don´t know!

.
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Not at all a sloppy statement.
In relation to the thread title, it matters not a jot whether you use the term yoga or acupuncture:the 'meridians theory' is not reality based.
 
kerikiwi said:
Not at all a sloppy statement.
In relation to the thread title, it matters not a jot whether you use the term yoga or acupuncture:the 'meridians theory' is not reality based.
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Ah ok sorry, thought you were talking about yoga as well.
 
fallout said:
Thanks casebro, where did you read that? I´m trying to spot this over the web, I found that at WIKI but i´m still trying to spot the sources.
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Here's the one used as a source (and linked to) by the Wikipedia article:

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/293/17/2118

The abstract doesn't describe exactly what the "sham acupuncture" was, but this news report of the study makes it clear that it was sticking the needles in at points other than those that, according to the "meridian" hypothesis, are supposed to relieve the migraines:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4508597.stm
 
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