Yet more NLP BS

[Lothario]

What do you think of these two characters:

Ross Jeffries, whose website is speedseduction.biz
Kenrick Cleveland, maxpersuasion.com

The first one claims to be able to hypnotize any woman into bed by using hypnotic patterns full of embedded commands (ericksonian hypnotic suggestions), which will describe a state (like arousal, for instance) and then link it to yourself by means of an anchor (if i understand correctly, the "anchor" has its origin in pavlovian psychology). I've looked through some forums and found guys claiming to have "created a hypnotized sex slave by using Speed Seduction", and stuff like that. Sounds like BS, but the reasoning behind it is quite clever.

The second guy has applied the same principles to sales. He has some videos on youtube where he's setting an "amnesia anchor" and his products claim to be able to destroy any objection from costumers, etc, etc.

The two nlp-spawns need debunking. What do you guys think?

 

[ArthurWilborn]

Huh.

Well, there's no doubt that you could replicate the results. It's less complicated then many people think to create a love slave or do well in sales, and you can achieve these results quite rapidly if you use the right techniques. NLP isnt the way I would do it, since what words are relevant to people vary so significantly between people.

Hate to say it, but emotional dependency is still the most reliable method and generally the way to go.

 

[MikeSun5]

What do you think of these two characters:

Ross Jeffries, whose website is speedseduction.biz
Kenrick Cleveland, maxpersuasion.com

The first one claims to be able to hypnotize any woman into bed by using hypnotic patterns full of embedded commands (ericksonian hypnotic suggestions), which will describe a state (like arousal, for instance) and then link it to yourself by means of an anchor (if i understand correctly, the "anchor" has its origin in pavlovian psychology). I've looked through some forums and found guys claiming to have "created a hypnotized sex slave by using Speed Seduction", and stuff like that. Sounds like BS, but the reasoning behind it is quite clever.

The second guy has applied the same principles to sales. He has some videos on youtube where he's setting an "amnesia anchor" and his products claim to be able to destroy any objection from costumers, etc, etc.

The two nlp-spawns need debunking. What do you guys think?

NLP is garbage. It's simply a magic bean for self-help gurus and a misdirection tool for mentalists. I began reading about that stuff a long time ago, curious about psychology and intent on learning NLP. Most of the common techniques they claim (anchoring, swishing, etc.) aren't effective if your "target" isn't aware of what you're doing.

Those speed seduction techniques of Ross Jeffries are just silly ways of breaking the ice in bars just like all the other cornballs in the "Pickup Artist" community. Getting drunk girls into bed is a matter of finding the dumb ones, not hypnosis.

Here's Derren Brown "using" NLP for mind-control (edit: Watch for the "anchors"):
www.youtube.com/watch?v=befugtgikMg

NLP's only real practical application is entertainment.

 

[krayon]

After browsing through Jeffries's site, I suddenly feel the need to let off some steam, so here goes.

Whether it works or not, I find his product ethically questionable to say the least. His disciples' claims of success are in violation of the basic tenets of human dignity, to the point of literally making my stomach churn.

He's also offering a home study program on "kick-butt magick" and psychic influence ("The Secret" of pick-up artistry, if you will) for the bargain price of $439.77. What a gem of rape culture.

 

[Lothario]

I am familiar with Derren's work. Some of it is questionable, though.

I've heard somewhere that Derren Brown does common magic tricks and then disguises them as NLP, the same way mentalists before him disguised them as some sort of psychic power. Is that what you mean when you say mentalists use it as a misdirection tool?

Also, if you look around youtube, NLPers seem to find anchors in everything, from Obama's speeches to Chris Rock's stand-up performances.

Take care

 

[firecoins]

I am familiar with Derren's work. Some of it is questionable, though.

I've heard somewhere that Derren Brown does common magic tricks and then disguises them as NLP, the same way mentalists before him disguised them as some sort of psychic power. Is that what you mean when you say mentalists use it as a misdirection tool?

Also, if you look around youtube, NLPers seem to find anchors in everything, from Obama's speeches to Chris Rock's stand-up performances.

Take care

ding ding ding, we have a winner! Mentalists do not use NLP for real.

 

[Ashles]

I am familiar with Derren's work. Some of it is questionable, though.

I've heard somewhere that Derren Brown does common magic tricks and then disguises them as NLP, the same way mentalists before him disguised them as some sort of psychic power. Is that what you mean when you say mentalists use it as a misdirection tool?

Derren Brown is himself quite critical of the claims and practitioners of NLP. He outlines his feelings about it in his book Tricks of the Mind.

 

[Lucian]

What do you think of these two characters:

Ross Jeffries, whose website is speedseduction.biz
Kenrick Cleveland, maxpersuasion.com

The first one claims to be able to hypnotize any woman into bed by using hypnotic patterns full of embedded commands (ericksonian hypnotic suggestions), which will describe a state (like arousal, for instance) and then link it to yourself by means of an anchor (if i understand correctly, the "anchor" has its origin in pavlovian psychology). I've looked through some forums and found guys claiming to have "created a hypnotized sex slave by using Speed Seduction", and stuff like that. Sounds like BS, but the reasoning behind it is quite clever.

The second guy has applied the same principles to sales. He has some videos on youtube where he's setting an "amnesia anchor" and his products claim to be able to destroy any objection from costumers, etc, etc.

The two nlp-spawns need debunking. What do you guys think?

Wow, what an incredible slime-bucket (Ross Jeffries, I mean, not you Lothario).

If you don’t get laid, I don’t get paid! It’s that simple.
You Must Sleep With At Least 3 Hot Women Within 90 Days Of Using My Home Study Course Or You Pay Nothing…I’ll Refund Every Penny!

Classy! If it were true that you could hypnotize a woman into having sex with you or becoming your sex-slave--against her better judgment and perhaps against her will--wouldn't that be a form of rape?

 

[Lothario]

Wow, what an incredible slime-bucket (Ross Jeffries, I mean, not you Lothario).


Classy! If it were true that you could hypnotize a woman into having sex with you or becoming your sex-slave--against her better judgment and perhaps against her will--wouldn't that be a form of rape?

Yes, if it worked and if you could prove it was against her will, it would be a form of rape. The true problem is, if it's a form of "covert" hypnosis, how do you prove it?

It would be great if someone with knowledge in the field of hypnosis could step in and explain if it can be used for these purposes.

 

[Senex]

Yes, if it worked and if you could prove it was against her will, it would be a form of rape. The true problem is, if it's a form of "covert" hypnosis, how do you prove it?

It would be great if someone with knowledge in the field of hypnosis could step in and explain if it can be used for these purposes.

I have knowledge concerning hypnosis. Hypnosis is a placebo. There is no such thing as covert hypnotism. Covert manipulation will always be alive and thriving -- but not hypnotism.

The problem with hypnotism is no one can define it. It's kind of woo but I can't argue against someone who says their experience trumps my own research and performance.

However, trust me, the President of the United States doesn't use hypnosis. Hypnosis doesn't work on people who don't agree to have it performed on themself. Manipulating a woman to have sex with you may rise to the category of research -- but it doesn't equal hypnosis.

 

[foxholeatheist]

Oh yeah, around here we have plenty of MMA mags laying around and out of sheer and mind numbing bor-dumb I have flipped though them.

It's the same old advertising trick: Play on human insecurity. It's the most sure fire way to make money ever. Soldiers buy all sorts of quack products intended to make them "ripped" or "cut" or some other weird adjective that describes what should be done with all those mags.

Frame it around a sorta-sceintific frame work and it's all over. Dudes will be forking over the money faster than you can say "Dynamic Tension!"

 

[dann]

Whether it works or not, I find his product ethically questionable to say the least. His disciples' claims of success are in violation of the basic tenets of human dignity, to the point of literally making my stomach churn.

But it is important to know whether it works or or not, isn't it?
If you criticise alleged telepaths of being unethical when they read other people's minds, you actually support the woo sentiment! They themselves enjoy these discussions and always swear that they would not use their 'powers' with bad intentions. But the dishonesty is that they pretend to be able to read the minds of other people - and charge a price to do so.
So would you be able to convince somebody who isn't really into you to have sex with you?
Well, maybe, sometimes.
But would you want her to?
The number of Johns show us that a lot of people would.

 

[thrombus29]

I Like using the "Seduce And Destroy" method, by Frank T.J. Mackey.

 

[Baylor]

What do you think of these two characters:

Ross Jeffries, whose website is speedseduction.biz
Kenrick Cleveland, maxpersuasion.com

The first one claims to be able to hypnotize any woman into bed by using hypnotic patterns full of embedded commands (ericksonian hypnotic suggestions), which will describe a state (like arousal, for instance) and then link it to yourself by means of an anchor (if i understand correctly, the "anchor" has its origin in pavlovian psychology). I've looked through some forums and found guys claiming to have "created a hypnotized sex slave by using Speed Seduction", and stuff like that. Sounds like BS, but the reasoning behind it is quite clever.

The second guy has applied the same principles to sales. He has some videos on youtube where he's setting an "amnesia anchor" and his products claim to be able to destroy any objection from costumers, etc, etc.

The two nlp-spawns need debunking. What do you guys think?

Ah, old NLP crap. Haven't heard that garbage in a while. This crowd seems to be social scientific-literate so we should be able give it a good debunking. Though there's not much substance to their claims. Just bare assertions backed with no scientific evidence. They do not even attempt to describe the methods they used to gain the knowledge.

 

[Lothario]

I Like using the "Seduce And Destroy" method, by Frank T.J. Mackey.

That character is actually based on Jeffries from what I read.

Any more comments?

 

[Lothario]

So... nobody can provide a straight answer on whether it works or not? I am rather concerned.
I keep running into the most outrageous and unethical claims (things along the lines of creating sex slaves and stalkers, increasing sales, persuasion, etc). I've looked around for studies and i can only find studies on PRS and eye-acessing cues, which have been proven wrong. Nothing on the so called embedded commands and the efficiency of anchoring in the terms NLPers propose.
I know that testimonial evidence is not, by any means, evidence, but there's lots of it.

 

[MikeSun5]

So... nobody can provide a straight answer on whether it works or not? I am rather concerned.
I keep running into the most outrageous and unethical claims (things along the lines of creating sex slaves and stalkers, increasing sales, persuasion, etc). I've looked around for studies and i can only find studies on PRS and eye-acessing cues, which have been proven wrong. Nothing on the so called embedded commands and the efficiency of anchoring in the terms NLPers propose.
I know that testimonial evidence is not, by any means, evidence, but there's lots of it.

Concerned? Don't waste your concern on a d-bag like Ross Jeffries. He claims all this covert hypnosis crap because he's got enough guts to talk to girls despite his retarded Art Garfunkel jewfro haircut. I'd be claiming paranormal reasons, too!
A friend of mine turned me on to that speed seduction nonsense and had me read The Game and The Revelation. It's all crap for nerds to be able to talk to women. Of course it's all the same stuff over and over: Be confident. Don't lurk. Act like you don't care. Women love it.
I think the hypnosis link comes in because of "non-verbal inductions." If I remember this garbage correctly, it has something to do with trances. When you have an experience you haven't had before, you enter somewhat of a trance... similar to when you're really into a TV show while someone says something to you that you didn't hear.
Anyway, long story long, Ross Jeffries claims that if you can hold a girl's attention long enough, you can ask questions and bring up experiences that conjure up feel-good or sexual memories, anchor them, and deploy those anchors later when you want her to feel like doing it. How drunk the target-girl has to be never gets mentioned...

While some of the pickup artist techniques are funny (and therefore somewhat effective at ice-breaking), for the most part it's bogus.

 

[tsig]

What do you think of these two characters:

Ross Jeffries, whose website is speedseduction.biz
Kenrick Cleveland, maxpersuasion.com

The first one claims to be able to hypnotize any woman into bed by using hypnotic patterns full of embedded commands (ericksonian hypnotic suggestions), which will describe a state (like arousal, for instance) and then link it to yourself by means of an anchor (if i understand correctly, the "anchor" has its origin in pavlovian psychology). I've looked through some forums and found guys claiming to have "created a hypnotized sex slave by using Speed Seduction", and stuff like that. Sounds like BS, but the reasoning behind it is quite clever.

The second guy has applied the same principles to sales. He has some videos on youtube where he's setting an "amnesia anchor" and his products claim to be able to destroy any objection from costumers, etc, etc.

The two nlp-spawns need debunking. What do you guys think?

Candy is dandy but liquor is quicker.

(Ogden nash?)

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

So... nobody can provide a straight answer on whether it works or not? I am rather concerned.
I keep running into the most outrageous and unethical claims (things along the lines of creating sex slaves and stalkers, increasing sales, persuasion, etc). I've looked around for studies and i can only find studies on PRS and eye-acessing cues, which have been proven wrong. Nothing on the so called embedded commands and the efficiency of anchoring in the terms NLPers propose.
I know that testimonial evidence is not, by any means, evidence, but there's lots of it.

It's pretty much an unfalsifiable hypothesis, without large-scale controlled tests. If someone has sex with someone else, there's no way of telling whether they did so only because of NLP or whether they would have done it anyway just because they found them attractive.

Ideally you'd recruit sets of identical triplets, train one in NLP, another in basic social skills, leave the last untrained as a control, turn them loose in bars and see what their hit rates were.

The burden of proof for these sorts of claims should be on the claimant, not everybody else.

 

[MikeSun5]

It's pretty much an unfalsifiable hypothesis, without large-scale controlled tests. If someone has sex with someone else, there's no way of telling whether they did so only because of NLP or whether they would have done it anyway just because they found them attractive.

Especially since all the supporting data is in the form of testimonials on their websites. I'm sure none of which have quotes of girls saying, "I'm a former Miss America and I had sex with this weird old man the day I met him. He must have hypnotized me."

Those guys don't use NLP, hypnosis, pheromones, or anything else. Their techniques are quite simple, indeed: