Wrong on Looting Again

[corplinx]

The western press has always been negative first and correct second when it comes to reporting on the Iraq war.

First it turns out the priceless antiquities of the Iraqi museum weren't all looted. Now, we can all breath a sigh of relief. The "nuclear materials" we all heard had been looted from the storage site has been accounted for. Specifically uranium we were told could now be in the hands of civillians or worse terrorists.

My guess is that the looting has become such a common though that its too late to get it out of the mind of the masses who get their news from local network affiliates. There was looting of course, but nowhere as bad as originally portrayed.

 

[Mr Manifesto]

First it turns out the priceless antiquities of the Iraqi museum weren't all looted...

Oh, really?

"Some 30 major pieces from exhibition galleries. Unknown thousands of excavated objects from storage. Major works from galleries smashed or damaged." The unknown thousands are beginning to be quantified. Expert assessors in Vienna last week estimated the losses from the museum storerooms at between 6,000 and 10,000.

Outside the Iraq Museum, the picture is equally grim. At Baghdad University, classrooms, laboratories and offices have been vandalised, and equipment and furniture stolen or destroyed. Student libraries have been emptied. Nabil al-Tikriti of the Univer sity of Chicago reported in May that the Ministry of Endowments and Religious Affairs lost 600-700 manuscripts in a malicious fire and more than 1,000 were stolen. The House of Wisdom and the Iraqi Academy of Sciences were also looted. The National Library was burned to the ground and most of its 12 million books are assumed to have been incinerated.

I guess if you say something enough times it becomes true. Let's try it:

The Earth is flat...
The Earth is flat...
The Earth is flat...
The Earth is flat...

Any results yet?

 

[corplinx]

Re: Re: Wrong on Looting Again

I guess if you say something enough times it becomes true. Let's try it:

The Earth is flat...
The Earth is flat...
The Earth is flat...
The Earth is flat...

Any results yet?

You sir are a twit. I have no sympathy for this rubbish. The fact that the looting of the museum was vastly exaggerated in the western press is just that, a fact. 30 antiquites are unaccounted for and may have not been "looted" at all.

You are the very epitome of your accusation.

The museum was looted bare
The museum was looted bare
The museum was looted bare

This was the negative assumption the western press fell into and you sir are a mark for still believing it.

 

[Mr Manifesto]

I've provided my evidence that there were a lot more than 30 items looted. Where's your evidence that there were only about 30? Fox news?



PS- I didn't ask for your sympathy, and I don't appreciate gibbons calling me 'sir'.

 

[corplinx]

I've provided my evidence that there were a lot more than 30 items looted. Where's your evidence that there were only about 30? Fox news?

PS- I didn't ask for your sympathy, and I don't appreciate gibbons calling me 'sir'.

Dear sir,

You have resorted to mincing words. 30 high-value antiquities versus 30 "items".

Despite this, I maintain that the hand wringing over what was hailed as permanent loss to the world because of US failure to protect the museum while they guarded oil interests was done on false information. The facts were misrepresented. Do a google news search for museum looted.

 

[Mr Manifesto]

I did, duh! Notice the link? It goes to an article by the Guardian. The sources are quoted. The article is date 18 June.

You have decided that you are going to believe the unbelievable- that looters will just stop at 30 items. In ten years perhaps the truth will dawn on you that many, many more items were taken. That, presumable, is how long it will take to pull your head out of the sand and shake that sand out of your ears.

 

[corplinx]

That, presumable, is how long it will take to pull your head out of the sand and shake that sand out of your ears.

For an athiest, I do believe Jesus (if he did exist) was a wise man. He once said something to the effect that some people are so busy looking for a splinter in another's eye that they fail to see the plank in their own. Try using some ear drops to loosen that quik-crete in your ears there pal.

 

[Mr Manifesto]

You still haven't given me this marvellous source of yours that says only 30 items were taken. I've found reports that supports your claim that were dated mid-April to early May. Could it be that you're a victim of American propaganda?

What's that phrase you use..? Oh, that's it- woo-woo logic.

 

[Mr Manifesto]

Oh, Look! A Washington Post article dated 13 June which says,

These objects were kept in the museum's five storerooms, three of which were subject to some looting. A preliminary inventory of a small part of one storeroom, under the supervision of occupation authority investigators, revealed that 2,100 objects were missing. Their estimate of objects stolen from the study collection now stands at only 3,000, which I think is wildly optimistic. It is pure guesswork. Conducting a complete inventory of the stores will take many months, and the final total could well be far higher. Just last week, Mutawalli, the museum director, estimated that 12,000 pieces were missing. That's why it's so critical to have an accurate count of what's truly lost.

You still haven't provided your sources yet, Corplinx. Perhaps you're embarassed at being caught out. No need, you can simply apologise and we can continue as before.


BTW- this damages your credibility when you claim that the missing uranium has been accounted for. No source there, either, I noticed.

 

[Aoidoi]

This is what a quick Google search turned up:

http://www.theage.com.au/handheld/articles/2003/06/17/1055828326275.htm
http://www.opinionjournal.com/la/?id=110003614
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2003/05/iraq-030519-rfel-153926.htm

It would appear from these links that the initial reports of 170,000 items missing were exaggerated and that many if not most of the items were secured in vaults to protect them from looting. Some pieces are missing, but the entire museum was not cleaned out by looters. I have no idea of the accuracy of these articles, but they seem plausible. Didn't find any mainstream press reports in the last week or so about it either pro or con, so that's kind of a wash.

On uranium:

http://cbn.org/CBNNews/iraq/030521f.asp

The museum bit seems to me to be a fairly typical case of reporters going for attention grabbing headlines and never bothering to correct them as new information becomes available. Which is pretty much SOP as far as I can tell. On the uranium stuff I dunno, seems like there's plenty of coverage of what's missing, didn't see much speculation on that one.

 

[Tricky]

It looks as if war apologists are backed into a corner, crying, "See! It's not as bad as it could have been." Certainly I am glad that the museum curators took precautions to make sure that many of the most precious relics were protected, but to claim that

30 antiquites are unaccounted for

is not only incorrect (as Mr. Manifesto has shown) but simply ridiculous. We saw film footage of looters carrying things out of the buildings. Oh, yeah, possibly they were museum employees taking them to a safe place, but they certainly forgot to sign out for them.

So by any accounting, this war was mostly a disaster. Oh yeah, we have their oil now, but it will be hard to exploit it with the eyes of the world trained on us.

So let's look at the balance sheet:

• WMD's exposed. BZZT! No WMDs found so far
• Democratic, or at least USA friendly government installed. BZZT! Only government ready to take the reins is a USA hating Theocracy
• Free the people from a murderous dictator. BZZT! US has killed quite a few citizens since the war ended. US staged raids on homes and terrorized people who have no connection to Saddam. Like Saddam, they are killing anyone who they suspect of being their enemies.American behaviour is as bad as Hussein's.
• Find terrorists. BZZT! none found. Some Baathist party guys, but none with ties to international terrorism.
  
• Saddam Hussein killed or captured. BZZT! No evidence of his death. Certainly not captured.
  
• Win the respect of the world for taking out a cruel dictator. BZZT! Most of the world hates and distrusts US more than ever. Also, wasted all the diplomatic advantages of having sympathy after 9-11. We killed more citizens than the 9-11 terrorists killed, and none of the 9-11 terrorists were Iraqi. All we've done is prove we are equally brutal.

Of course, some of the unstated goals, like "getting an operating base in the Mideast that doesn't have to deal with any governments", and "putting oil fields in US hands" and "enriching Dubya's cronies with restoration contracts" and "avenging daddy" have indeed been achieved. So I guess it is not a total loss.

 

[Aoidoi]

Win the respect of the world for taking out a cruel dictator. BZZT! Most of the world hates and distrusts US more than ever. Also, wasted all the diplomatic advantages of having sympathy after 9-11. We killed more citizens than the 9-11 terrorists killed, and none of the 9-11 terrorists were Iraqi. All we've done is prove we are equally brutal.

I'm not sure that Bush & Co. were looking for respect. It seems to me that their actions have been more to frighten countries and organizations into not messing with the US. I don't know if this is a great idea as it seems to have alienated our traditional allies, but I have heard it argued that Clinton's soft foreign policy and unwillingness to get dirty made terrorists (and foreign govenrments) far more bold. Bin Laden on some of his tapes was saying that the US doesn't have a stomach for a fight, that like in Mogadishu at the first sign of casualties we'd pull out. Seems like Bush took that as a challenge.

I suspect it has made some people reconsider their opinions of the US, but I don't know if that's a good thing or not.

It seems like both sides have taken to making lists of their "wins" in this thing, guess at the end whoever's got a bigger one comes out ahead.

 

[Mr Manifesto]

6000 items looted!

Well, we can at least safely say they weren't all looted. I'm sure there's a cuneform or a tablet still lying around somewhere.

 

[Mike B.]

It looks as if war apologists are backed into a corner, crying, "See! It's not as bad as it could have been." Certainly I am glad that the museum curators took precautions to make sure that many of the most precious relics were protected, but to claim that is not only incorrect (as Mr. Manifesto has shown) but simply ridiculous. We saw film footage of looters carrying things out of the buildings. Oh, yeah, possibly they were museum employees taking them to a safe place, but they certainly forgot to sign out for them.

So by any accounting, this war was mostly a disaster. Oh yeah, we have their oil now, but it will be hard to exploit it with the eyes of the world trained on us.

So let's look at the balance sheet:

• WMD's exposed. BZZT! No WMDs found so far
• Democratic, or at least USA friendly government installed. BZZT! Only government ready to take the reins is a USA hating Theocracy
• Free the people from a murderous dictator. BZZT! US has killed quite a few citizens since the war ended. US staged raids on homes and terrorized people who have no connection to Saddam. Like Saddam, they are killing anyone who they suspect of being their enemies.American behaviour is as bad as Hussein's.
• Find terrorists. BZZT! none found. Some Baathist party guys, but none with ties to international terrorism.
  
• Saddam Hussein killed or captured. BZZT! No evidence of his death. Certainly not captured.
  
• Win the respect of the world for taking out a cruel dictator. BZZT! Most of the world hates and distrusts US more than ever. Also, wasted all the diplomatic advantages of having sympathy after 9-11. We killed more citizens than the 9-11 terrorists killed, and none of the 9-11 terrorists were Iraqi. All we've done is prove we are equally brutal.

Of course, some of the unstated goals, like "getting an operating base in the Mideast that doesn't have to deal with any governments", and "putting oil fields in US hands" and "enriching Dubya's cronies with restoration contracts" and "avenging daddy" have indeed been achieved. So I guess it is not a total loss.

So the tens of thousands of people in these mass graves is the same thing as the US?