Would it ever be ethical to download software from a p2p?

[Interesting Ian]

I mean software which you would normally be expected to pay for. Or would it necessarily always be unethical?

BTW p2p means one of these file sharing utilities, such as kazaa, or eDonkey, eMule etc, so you can share files with anyone in the world.

Comments please

 

[Stimpson J. Cat]

That depends on your code of ethics. I can certainly think of many circumstances where it would be perfectly ethical to do so.

Dr. Stupid

 

[Upchurch]

If you own a copy of the software and it were damaged in someway, then I imagine it would be ethical to download an undamaged copy.

It also depends on what you mean by "otherwise would be expected to pay for". If paying for it is the only other way to get the software, then it would probably be unethical. If there is a freeware or copyleft version of software that is similar to software that you have to pay for, I wouldn't consider downloading the free versions to be unethical at all.

 

[WildCat]

Ethics aside, downloading an executable program from an anonymous person might not be a wise idea.

 

[Interesting Ian]

If you own a copy of the software and it were damaged in someway, then I imagine it would be ethical to download an undamaged copy.

Let's suppose you don't.

It also depends on what you mean by "otherwise would be expected to pay for". If paying for it is the only other way to get the software, then it would probably be unethical.

Yes this is what I mean.

It is always unethical then?

 

[Interesting Ian]

Ethics aside, downloading an executable program from an anonymous person might not be a wise idea.

Might not be, or isn't?

 

[scribble]

Ethical, legal?

What are you trying to ask?

Ethics are considered subjective by most people. It's definately illegal to reproduce a copyrighted work for public distribution in most countries. Is it unethical? Look to your on code of ethics.

Do I find it to be a distasteful, despicable practice? Yes. Am I slightly biased, being a software developer who relies on the sales of his software for a living? Yes.

Would I develop software if I knew I wouldn't get paid for it?

No.

Sorry. The GPL is cool and everything, but I've got to eat.

Do I think people who make a habit of downloading copyrighted software they do not own a license to from P2P systems are small-minded ignoramuses?

Yup.

If it came out you were one of those people though, Ian, don't worry. It won't change my opinion of you.

 

[scribble]

Might not be, or isn't?

Might not be. I download executable programs from "anonymous" people all the time.

Seriously, Ian, are you trying to make a point here?

 

[Interesting Ian]

Ethical, legal?

What are you trying to ask?

I'm referring to the ethical dimension.

Ethics are considered subjective by most people.

Then they are stupid.

Do I find it to be a distasteful, despicable practice? Yes.

I'm not interested. I'm only interested in whether in all cases it can be construed to be unethical.

Do I think people who make a habit of downloading copyrighted software they do not own a license to from P2P systems are small-minded ignoramuses?

Yup.

What are they ignorant about? What do you mean by "small-minded"?

 

[WildCat]

Might not be, or isn't?

You'll probably be OK if you monitor the file sizes of the software you intend to d/l for a while. If many people are sharing it and it's all the same size, it's probably legit. But if you see someone sharing it and it has a greatly different file size, beware! Also, look for zipped versions of the software so you can at least inspect it first, don't just d/l the .exe version.

 

[scribble]

I'm referring to the ethical dimension.

Never been there. Does Superman have magic powers there as well?

Then they are stupid.

Most people? I agree.

I'm not interested. I'm only interested in whether in all cases it can be construed to be unethical.

You're only interested whether in ALL CASES it's unethical?

The answer tot hat is simple: it's not. I need only name one circumstance in which it's both Okay and Right to show you how dumb your question was, right?

How about the time I used a P2P system to tansfer files from my work PC to my home PC when I couldn't get either my FTP implementation or my CD-ROM burner working?

Not unethical. Have a nice day.

What are they ignorant about? What do you mean by "small-minded"?

They, or you? I can't answer for the general, because they're ignorant of a lot of things. I could try to answer for you, but I'm afraid it would have to be a similarly vague description of a very large quantity of things.

By small-minded, I mean unable to look beyond their own desires. "Gimme, gimme, gimme." Admittedly, this is nearly encompassed by the ignorant label I'd already attached.

 

[espritch]

In my opinion, stealing in unethical. This applies to stealing intellectual property just as much as to stealing money or physical property.

I think the recording industry is greedy and they over charge for CDs. But I still think they are within their rights to prosecute music file swappers. My rights with regard to their products extend to not purchasing the product. It does not extend to stealing it. This is just as true for programs.

As a programmer, I know how much work goes into creating software. If you don't want to pay for it, do the work and write your own.

 

[scribble]

As a programmer, I know how much work goes into creating software. If you don't want to pay for it, do the work and write your own. [/B]

Yeah - but Ian's question is apparently is it always unethical? Of course not. Bittorrent is often one of the easiest and fastest ways to get a hot new linux distro right this minute. And that's fair and legal and even - if one were to be a Linux Zealot - Right-with-a-capital-R.

Kazaa lite is my favorite way to download mp3s of songs from CDs I have in storage. Is that fair use? I guess it's debateable. I obviously think so.

There are many instances of uses of these things that are as legit as they come. I've provided two for sure and a shaky third. I'm sure an imaginative fellow like Ian can dream up many others.

 

[Ratman_tf]

I mean software which you would normally be expected to pay for. Or would it necessarily always be unethical?

BTW p2p means one of these file sharing utilities, such as kazaa, or eDonkey, eMule etc, so you can share files with anyone in the world.

Comments please

Do you mean using a p2p program to download something in order to avoid paying for it? In that case, I'd say most likely yes. I'm hesitant to go for the always, because I don't have instantly infinite imagination, and might be missing a circumstance where it might be ethical.

 

[Interesting Ian]

In my opinion, stealing in unethical.

All stealing?? Suppose you were on the verge of starving to death and you stole a loaf of bread?

This applies to stealing intellectual property just as much as to stealing money or physical property.

I think the recording industry is greedy and they over charge for CDs. But I still think they are within their rights to prosecute music file swappers. My rights with regard to their products extend to not purchasing the product. It does not extend to stealing it. This is just as true for programs.

We're not talking about rights. We're discussing what is ethical. Therefore this is irrelevant.

As a programmer, I know how much work goes into creating software. If you don't want to pay for it, do the work and write your own.

Irrelevant.

 

[scribble]

Re: Re: Would it ever be ethical to download software from a p2p?

Do you mean using a p2p program to download something in order to avoid paying for it? In that case, I'd say most likely yes.

You mean to illegally acquire copyrighted works?

Some folks make the argument that if you are only going to "try it out" then it's okay. Sites that allowed the downloading of ROMs often had a disclaimer that said, "If you do not own the media then you may only use this ROM for 24 hours," for example. Many people think that's legal and OK.

I don't think it's either. I'm not a laywer, but I can point to the fact that they don't get away with that anymore. And as far as OK, definately not. If a developer wants you to "try out" his software, he'll send you a demo. If he's fatheaded and thinks his software stands on hype alone, then he deserves to get no sales. But in no case do you win the right to make that decision for him.

I can't think of ny other realistic argument that would be made here. I can think of some pretty ridiculous unrealistic ones, though.

 

[Interesting Ian]

Yeah - but Ian's question is apparently is it always unethical? Of course not. Bittorrent is often one of the easiest and fastest ways to get a hot new linux distro right this minute. And that's fair and legal and even - if one were to be a Linux Zealot - Right-with-a-capital-R.

Kazaa lite is my favorite way to download mp3s of songs from CDs I have in storage. Is that fair use? I guess it's debateable. I obviously think so.

There are many instances of uses of these things that are as legit as they come. I've provided two for sure and a shaky third. I'm sure an imaginative fellow like Ian can dream up many others.

I'm only considering the case of illegal downloading.

 

[scribble]

All stealing?? Suppose you were on the verge of starving to death and you stole a loaf of bread?

(Supposing you took the legal alternative and went to a soup kitchen, says I? Supposing there were no soup kitchen, or you were too weak to get there, says Ian? Okay. says I...)

Ah. So we are supposed to delve into the realm of the unrealistic as I was afraid.

Sure, Ian, I can come up withs ome hypothetical situations in which my life or livelyhood depended on illegally downloading P2P software.

I can't think of one where there wouldn't have been a better, smarter, more legal, more ethical solution available.

Can you? You seem to have a pretty wild imagination.

 

[Cleopatra]

I mean software which you would normally be expected to pay for. Or would it necessarily always be unethical?

BTW p2p means one of these file sharing utilities, such as kazaa, or eDonkey, eMule etc, so you can share files with anyone in the world.

Comments please

Ethical? Have we started analyzing the morality of stealing now? If you were the creator of a popular software would you like people using it without paying for it?People who starve do not steal loaves of bread they go to work!

 

[Interesting Ian]

Re: Re: Re: Would it ever be ethical to download software from a p2p?

You mean to illegally acquire copyrighted works?

Some folks make the argument that if you are only going to "try it out" then it's okay. Sites that allowed the downloading of ROMs often had a disclaimer that said, "If you do not own the media then you may only use this ROM for 24 hours," for example. Many people think that's legal and OK.

I don't think it's either. I'm not a laywer, but I can point to the fact that they don't get away with that anymore. And as far as OK, definately not.

It is utterly preposterous to suggest it is unethical to try out software for 24 hours. I wasn't just referring to 24 hours but to use the software to your hearts content. Would this always be unethical?

If a developer wants you to "try out" his software, he'll send you a demo. If he's fatheaded and thinks his software stands on hype alone, then he deserves to get no sales. But in no case do you win the right to make that decision for him.

We're not discussing rights. We're discussing what is ethical.