Will tariffs make America great?

[William Parcher]

If tariffs are so good why weren't they used before?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Tariffs can give an uncompetitive industry the time to modernize and specialize, so it will be able to compete on its own.
It's what all big industry nations have done as a matter of course, including England, the US, South Korea etc.
The Trump tariffs are none of those: they are not coordinated with the industries in question, they are not targeted, and they are not part of a bigger plan to make the US more attractive to investors in the actual economy, foreign or domestic.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Tariffs are not Trump's idea at all. He obviously has no idea what they are or how they work, even though he went to Wharton business school. Some of his handlers have thought up this harebrained notion of retaliation, as they also don't have any understanding of international economics or commerce. And now the word is stuck in his smooth orange brain on repeat.

 

[Orphia Nay]

Seen elsewhere: "Remind me again, do tariffs go forward or back again tonight?"

 

[PitPat]

Kind of depends on what mood Trump is in tonight. And who's around him with any sort of sound advice.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Trump is using tariffs as a cudgel to extort one-sided trade deals.
But since they are already extremely one-sided, that won't work.

 

[Puppycow]

Tariffs can give an uncompetitive industry the time to modernize and specialize, so it will be able to compete on its own.

Or it can insulate an uncompetitive industry so that it doesn't have to modernize and specialize or compete on its own.

 

[mikegriffith1]

If tariffs are so good why weren't they used before?

Yikes. FYI, China, the EU, South Korea, and Japan, to name a few nations, have been using tariffs for decades to protect key industries and products.

America used tariffs--really high tariffs--for decades, from the late 1800s through the 1950s--to become the industrial and economic powerhouse of the world.

 

[The Don]

Yikes. FYI, China, the EU, South Korea, and Japan, to name a few nations, have been using tariffs for decades to protect key industries and products.

America used tariffs--really high tariffs--for decades, from the late 1800s through the 1950s--to become the industrial and economic powerhouse of the world.

Correlation, not causation.

The US also had the considerable benefit of new exploitable resources, a rapidly growing population and not being ravaged by two world wars.

None of that is the case now. It's like changing your spoon to lose weight ignoring the changes to diet and exercise.

 

[arthwollipot]

No.

/thread

 

[Norman Alexander]

Yikes. FYI, China, the EU, South Korea, and Japan, to name a few nations, have been using tariffs for decades to protect key industries and products.

Still do.

America used tariffs--really high tariffs--for decades, from the late 1800s through the 1950s--to become the industrial and economic powerhouse of the world.

Oh, a couple of major depressions and a few world wars need not be mentioned.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Nor the fact that the US was at the forefront of science and education at that time, with a well paid workforce that had job security.
All things the current government seek as woke socialism and is actively burning down.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Nor the fact that the US was at the forefront of science and education at that time, with a well paid workforce that had job security.
All things the current government seek as woke socialism and is actively burning down.

And also had very high rates of taxation on the rich, and used that income to build strong armies, educate children, support the poor and drive high-end technical innovation (e.g. NASA).

 

[Tero]

Most trade deals are made with countries to give each some products that the othe might be making cheaper. So the consumer should get the best deal with free trade. However, the trade deals often make a list of farm goods that are excluded from the deal. So there is a tariff listed there. This way the farm goods in your own country are used prior to imported food or feed. It makes sense to keep farming in your country if there is good land to do it. Also, countires have different standards for food. Now if someone like Trump starts messing around with world trade, you can at least raise a good part of food at home. It stops disruptions in food.

A special deal exists for sugar cane in the US. We can make sugar from sugar beets as well, if there is some disruption or catastrophe elsewhere. We cannot make much coffee. I think only Hawaii.

 

[dirtywick]

tariffs are a tax penalty that makes it more difficult for foreign companies to compete in domestic markets. by making foreign products more expensive, domestic products are more appealing. it does, of course, lower demand. after all, both the foreign and domestic choices are now priced similarly but higher, the stuff just costs more.

there's a tradeoff with tariffs in that it discourages domestic economic activity. they make the stuff they effect cost more money, it lowers demand for the stuff that costs more because it costs more. less people are buying the stuff, less money is changing hands. after all, people only have so many dollars and as the price creeps up more and more people will choose better value for their dollars, this is almost an unconscious thing for people. thus, they lead to less economic activity, and less economic activity leads to less growth.

and what happens if your foreign trade partner finds their demand in another market?

you can see all this happening already. companies are raising domestic prices due to higher costs on imports and being more careful with spending, foreign trade partners are looking at other markets to make up a drop in demand, scarcity raises prices. the economy is slowing down, growth is slowing, the market is dropping. this was all predictable.

 

[Darat]

Yikes. FYI, China, the EU, South Korea, and Japan, to name a few nations, have been using tariffs for decades to protect key industries and products.

America used tariffs--really high tariffs--for decades, from the late 1800s through the 1950s--
to become the industrial and economic powerhouse of the world.

Helped along by bankrupting the UK.

And when did the USA have no tariffs on imports?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The biggest problem for business is not even so much that Trump likes tariffs, it's that he likes imposing them as threats and then withdrawing them as concessions.

The most disruptive thing for businesses is not the existence of punitive rules making some activities uneconomic, it's the moron in charge who keeps changing the rules. You can't keep ahead of the game when some nutcase keeps changing the rules of the game.

 

[dirtywick]

The biggest problem for business is not even so much that Trump likes tariffs, it's that he likes imposing them as threats and then withdrawing them as concessions.

The most disruptive thing for businesses is not the existence of punitive rules making some activities uneconomic, it's the moron in charge who keeps changing the rules. You can't keep ahead of the game when some nutcase keeps changing the rules of the game.

i agree, and it makes a lot of sense as well. how can you expect a company to commit to a long term high cost investment if the forecasts are wildly changing on a day to day basis? there's way more to trump using tariffs to help domestic manufacturing than let's make imports cost more, and he's not doing any of those things. like, what policy is helping to ramp up domestic production to fill in the supply void? uh, didn't think that far out, did he? no, in fact he wants to cut government spending and halt existing projects in addition. well, make that make sense.

it's really important to seperate tariffs as a concept from what trump is doing. they're a tool the government can use to effect economic growth and come with some potentially pretty severe trade offs. you can say tariffs are good, or tariffs are bad, but they're neither. they do this and that, they're a tax and taxes effect growth in a certain way. so what really matters is how they're being applied in a specific situation imo

so when mike griffith says something like look at how good tariffs did in the 1860s, you should be asking what's that got to do with what trump is doing now? is he carefully using them in specific industries, or using them to yell at canada and europe on twitter?

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

One of the smartest uses of tariffs I read about the other day is Canada's 200% tariffs on imports of some US agricultural products above a certain threshold. Exports of those products from US producers to Canada are nowhere near that threshold, but it is a guard against potential dumping by US producers into Canada.

Blanket tariffs will only make prices go up and consequently increase wealth inequality.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

One of the smartest uses of tariffs I read about the other day is Canada's 200% tariffs on imports of some US agricultural products above a certain threshold. Exports of those products from US producers to Canada are nowhere near that threshold, but it is a guard against potential dumping by US producers into Canada.

Blanket tariffs will only make prices go up and consequently increase wealth inequality.

Is that what Trump was bleating about the other day?

He was complaining about 200+ percent Canadian tariffs but of course didn't explain. He certainly didn't say they were anti-dumping measures whose threshold was never normally reached, only that they were nasty and unfair and US is the victim here.