Wildfires; USA compared to Australia.

Ranb

Penultimate Amazing
Joined
Jul 25, 2003
Messages
11,325
Location
WA USA
http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/27/opinions/dickman-wildfire-threat/index.html
I was reading about wildfires and the effort our firefighters make or don't make to save homes and businesses.

For state governments and communities, there are lessons to learn from Australia's fire-protection model. There, the government's wildfire policy, called "Stay or Go," requires that residents create defensible space by regularly thinning the brush and trees around their homes and train in basic firefighting tactics. Australians are encouraged to stay and help fight fires when the flames approach their houses, but if they decide to flee, they must do so at the first sight of smoke.

America doesn't have such a policy. The rule of thumb here is best described as, "Hope, Pray, and Run." In other words, hope that fires don't start, pray that firefighters put them out when they do, and run when the flames burn toward houses.

Australia's "Stay or Go" policy would never work in the U.S.. In the West, dry grass and forests, steep mountains, and strong winds lead to fires far too explosive for amateurs to fight, and the idea that Americans fight the fires that threaten their houses is unrealistic and dangerous. But there are pieces of "Stay or Go" that federal, state, and county governments would be reckless not to adopt. Homeowners should be proactively preparing for fires--as they do in Australia--by thinning brush around their homes and installing fire resistant roofs and siding.

Anyone here ever had to decide to "Stay or Go"?

Ranb
 
Wow.

Does CNN even lift?

But there are pieces of "Stay or Go" that federal, state, and county governments would be reckless not to adopt. Homeowners should be proactively preparing for fires--as they do in Australia--by thinning brush around their homes and installing fire resistant roofs and siding.

I live in one of the major wildfire regions, and this has been policy here for almost a decade now.

Get on my level, CNN.
 
Well as some of you might remember my whole town almost burned down two summers ago in a monster wildfire. I was fully prepared to leave at a moment's notice and would not have been of any use fighting the fire which mostly was contained by the creation of giant bulldozed fire breaks and a huge fleet of aerial bombers.
 
Back in 2005 or so there was a fire in the San Diego area. I was staying at the La Mirage near Qualcom Stadium while TAD at the Point Loma sub base. I went home from work early when my wife told me it was getting smoky near the apartments. The complex had no dry brush nearby, the grass was green and all the sprinklers were running when I got back. I saw a few people pack up to leave, but everyone else was watching the fire approach over a small ridge. Never reached us. That is my "stay" story; have no "go" story.

Ranb
 
Last edited:
My sister had to evacuate her house in Flagler Beach, FL several years ago during a wildfire.

She was the caretaker for an older relative and she was worried about him having to stay in the high school gymnasium with the rest of the refugees under the care of the National Guard. Turned out, he had the time of his life. He had survived WWII and proclaimed that current military rations (MREs) were far superior to what he ate when he was in France. :D

They stayed there for a few days until the fire was under control and then went back home.
 
Anyone here ever had to decide to "Stay or Go"?

Ranb

Yes - we went.

That aside, it is well known that the techniques used in each country are not adaptable for use in the other. We have been cross training for years, mainly to pick up tricks and tips. But in terms of large scale fire fighting, the environment in each country is simply too different.
 
We were only minutes away from being almost certainly killed in the Black Saturday bushfires. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Saturday_bushfires

The firefront was moving at 200kph, and a wind change turned the fire from a direct path to us about 10kms away. We wouldn't have known what hit us.

Our hope is that Black Saturday was a once in a century event. But if there's a red alert (meaning that deadly fires are imminent) in the future, we'll leave immediately. In fact we'd probably do the same if it was a smaller, local fire. When we had our pool, a generator and a pump (water pressure is an early casualty of bushfires) I would have stayed and fought a smaller fire, but probably not now.
 
Fires around here are particularly violent. We have lots of manzanita brush which burns with extraordinary ferocity and is stupidly hot. When the wildfire comes it is a wall of fire a hundred feet high that reduces everything in its path to little more than carbonized residue.

Any civilian trying to stay behind to fight those things are going to die.
 
I'd bet Australian fire services don't send in vehicles and people to battle every fire front. Not to engage in peen measuring but fires here are serious.
 
Any civilian trying to stay behind to fight those things are going to die.

And this is one of the reasons the article is miss leading. Generally in Australia a person wont stand alone to defend their property, often you are working with available fire fighting resources.
 
I want to see pictures of Australia's places that burn, before burning. I have no visual image of Australian wild ecosystems other than lifeless deserts with no fuel to burn. I know I've heard of some, but the pictures don't make it over here, so when I read about Australian wildfires, I can't picture what I'm reading.

But there are pieces of "Stay or Go" that federal, state, and county governments would be reckless not to adopt. Homeowners should be proactively preparing for fires--as they do in Australia--by thinning brush around their homes and installing fire resistant roofs and siding.

I live in one of the major wildfire regions, and this has been policy here for almost a decade now.
Whose policy? What level of government wrote the laws and enforces them? I'm not aware of any government doing that or even that it's within any government's jurisdiction in this country. I know of advice on the subject that some agencies do publish, but nothing that can be enforced. I am aware of Home-Owners' Associations (local neighborhoods where the contract you sign when you buy the house includes agreeing to follow certain neighborhood-specific policies) with requirements for landscaping and construction materials, but those can be counterproductive as easily as they can be helpful.
 
Australia used to have a stay or go policy. Fires such as the one that threatened lionking have made revision of that necessary.

The fact is, record temperatures and wind associated with global warming means you can't do either safely. The best option niw seems to be something like an underground shelter.
 
What an ignorant article. Have they never heard of how Eucalyptus trees can literally explode in Bushfires due to their high oil content? And that most Bushfires in Eastern Australia occur on or near the Great Dividing Range, which is a 3,500 kilometre long, 150-300 kilometre wide Mountain range, 90% of which is forest, mostly of various species of aforementioned exploding trees?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Dividing_Range
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucalyptus#Hazards
 
I want to see pictures of Australia's places that burn, before burning. I have no visual image of Australian wild ecosystems other than lifeless deserts with no fuel to burn. I know I've heard of some, but the pictures don't make it over here, so when I read about Australian wildfires, I can't picture what I'm reading.

Here are a few pictures from Alpine National Park in Victoria, which was badly burned by a series of Bushfires in 2003 and 2006-7. Both fires burnt over 10,000 square kilometres each (about 2.5 million acres).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006–07_Eastern_Victoria_Great_Divide_bushfires
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_National_Park#Bushfires
http://www.habitatadvocate.com.au/w...p-Alpine-National-Park-Victoria-Australia.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/Little_River_Gorge.jpg
http://www.exploreaustralia.net.au/images/content/rec/41/20686-1000x800.jpg
http://www.visitvictoria.com/~/medi...d_mt_feathertop_hc_r_923530_503x283.jpg?w=503
http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2011/10/19/1226171/007647-alpine-national-park.jpg
http://www.habitatadvocate.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Victorian-Alps1.jpg
http://www.bushwalkingblog.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/bogonghead.jpg

Here's another image, this time a satellite image of the Black Saturday Bushfires, which burned close to my home.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/February_7_Victoria_Bushfires_-_MODIS_Aqua.jpg
The dark green areas are all mountainous forests and coastal forests, the area shown is about half the size of Texas.
 
Yes - we went.

That aside, it is well known that the techniques used in each country are not adaptable for use in the other. We have been cross training for years, mainly to pick up tricks and tips. But in terms of large scale fire fighting, the environment in each country is simply too different.

And how often do we have to fight a fire on the underside of the prairie?
 
I want to see pictures of Australia's places that burn, before burning. I have no visual image of Australian wild ecosystems other than lifeless deserts with no fuel to burn. I know I've heard of some, but the pictures don't make it over here, so when I read about Australian wildfires, I can't picture what I'm reading.

Whose policy? What level of government wrote the laws and enforces them? I'm not aware of any government doing that or even that it's within any government's jurisdiction in this country. I know of advice on the subject that some agencies do publish, but nothing that can be enforced. I am aware of Home-Owners' Associations (local neighborhoods where the contract you sign when you buy the house includes agreeing to follow certain neighborhood-specific policies) with requirements for landscaping and construction materials, but those can be counterproductive as easily as they can be helpful.

I recall last year there was an ongoing fire around Mt Buggary. A lot of dense bush and eucalypt trees on undulating hills with very few roads. They tend to just let fires like this burn since it is so hard to fight them.

The fires that threatened lionking were different in that even cleared, grassed areas were deadly.

One year a fire near the capital city, Canberra, even burned houses in the surrounding suburbs. Canberra is like a large country town but this was still unusual.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Buggery_%28Alpine_Shire,_Victoria%29

In the Northern territory where there is plenty of scrubby bush and small trees, they just let fires burn during the 'winter'. No one bothers about putting them out. I had to drive through one once. The heat was coming through the window but it was night time. The locals do it all the time so I did it too.
 
Last edited:
I should point out that where I live maintaining defensible space is required around homes that are out in the country. Failure to comply can mean fines. But when the big wildfires come even that won't help. We get fires that burn from ground to tree top crown and create firestorm situations where the fire creates its own weather system that feeds it.

From what I understand the Black Saturday fires were a similar situation which is why they were so deadly and devastating.
 
I should point out that where I live maintaining defensible space is required around homes that are out in the country. Failure to comply can mean fines. But when the big wildfires come even that won't help. We get fires that burn from ground to tree top crown and create firestorm situations where the fire creates its own weather system that feeds it.

From what I understand the Black Saturday fires were a similar situation which is why they were so deadly and devastating.

Correct and we are implementing similar rules on new housing in high risk areas here.
 
I should point out that where I live maintaining defensible space is required around homes that are out in the country. Failure to comply can mean fines. But when the big wildfires come even that won't help. We get fires that burn from ground to tree top crown and create firestorm situations where the fire creates its own weather system that feeds it.

From what I understand the Black Saturday fires were a similar situation which is why they were so deadly and devastating.
The speed was also something new. I don't know how you can evacuate areas when you have no real idea where a fire can go.
 

Back
Top Bottom