Why dualism?

[Minoosh]

I wonder if anyone here has researched how man developed into a creature that believes in an afterlife, that feels it has a "soul" apart from its body. I suggest dualism came about because of a need to believe in an afterlife, which reveals a fear of the end of one's own existence. Animals have survival instincts; they pine; they grieve. But do they actually fear death? Is it an accident that humans developed rituals and taboos around the subject, or did* it serve some adaptive purpose? Did shamanistic con men use it to increase their own power and importance?

It seems to be almost a defining factor in the development of modern man. This isn't even just about religion - many us intuitively separate body and mind. Language reinforces the idea of separation, with concepts such as "willpower" and "mind over matter."

Why did humans develop this way?

 

[Loss Leader]

Is it an accident that humans developed rituals and taboos around the subject, or did* it serve some adaptive purpose?

I think it was an accident that served an adaptive purpose. We know that many animals older than humans can recognize death and even mourn (elephants, lemurs, etc.). As large as it is, the prefrontal cortex of the human gives us a far greater degree of concept manipulation and planning.

I suspect that rituals and beliefs in an immaterial world for the soul developed to help people deal with death and loss. Otherwise, we'd all just sit in the rain, watching the campfire go out and saying, "None of this matters. We're all going to die anyway."

The last thing proto-humans needed was an existential crisis.

 

[JoeMorgue]

The last thing proto-humans needed was an existential crisis.

It ain't exactly high on the list of things modern humans need either.

 

[theprestige]

We know that many animals older than humans can recognize death and even mourn (elephants, lemurs, etc.).

We do? Mourning is a subjective experience. The only reason we hold it in common with other humans because we have a common language with which to share our experiences. What common language do we share with elephants, which gives us confidence that their outward behavior indicates the subjective experience we collectively term "mourning"?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Because it's illogical the think that the human concept of "mourning" exists fully and wholly in humans but doesn't exist, perhaps in simpler and less complex forms to account for less neurological complexity, in other social animals.

The idea that the lack of a shared language prevents us from making reasonable hypothesis about the neurological, which includes emotional, state of other animals is not true.

Again as with anything and everything all we're gonna do is split hairs and argue semantics and categorization and throw dictionary definitions around but if humans mourn other animals mourn. There's nothing unique about the human neurological condition.

 

[Minoosh]

Otherwise, we'd all just sit in the rain, watching the campfire go out and saying, "None of this matters. We're all going to die anyway."

See, that's the kind of cavewoman I'd probably be. Useless.

 

[Magrat]

I read somewhere, and I can't remember where exactly, that the idea most likely sprang from the experience of watching someone die. I don't know if you have ever done so. I worked as a nurses' aide for several years and sat by dying patient's bedsides.

If you can picture this analogy, death (a peaceful death) is like a house being shut down. You can see the "person" exiting the body.

So, you and I might know this is neurons ceasing to fire etc... But without any scientific knowledge, it looks like something left. There's "nobody home" anymore.

It isn't a great leap to witness a body shut down, "see" the person "leave" the body, and then wonder where the "spirit" went.

The idea of afterlife varies substantially by culture, and people tend to build god(s) in their own image...and heaven in the image of their wishes. Desert cultures tended to envision a land "flowing in milk and honey", in other words, fertile and irrigated. Jungle cultures pictured an afterlife without the dangers of the jungle. Etc.

Eta it also would give comfort to mourners to believe their loved one is somewhere nice, and possibly can communicate or interceded on their behalf, leading to ancestor worship, "mediums", etc...

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

There are quite a few popular science books that address the subject of what is known about superstition from the scientific perspective. I started to read one (Supersense by Bruce Hood), but didn't get very far with it because, unlike many popular science books, I found it to be written in a very boring, ponderous way, with the author taking several pages to iterate and re-iterate something he could (and did) convey in a single paragraph.

As I'm interested in the subject and I've paid money for the book, I keep thinking I ought to give it another go, but haven't got round to it yet.

If you're genuinely interested, I'd suggest trying one of the other books on the subject.

 

[Fudbucker]

I can think of several reasons:

1. Certain drugs (e.g., ketamine) can induce an altered mind state where your "soul" leaves your body.

2. NDE's have been reported for thousands of years. Hearing about an NDE in acnient times from someone you trust would certainly give you pause to think.

3. I've heard from hospice workers that dying people often act as if they're reading themselves for a "journey" (and this was the case with my aunt when she was dying- she kept wanting to pack her suitcase. The hospice worker at the house said it was normal behavior).

4. Making up stories about the world makes things like earthquakes and volcanoes less frightening. Just toss some virgins in there and you're covered for the next ten years!

 

[Minoosh]

There's nothing unique about the human neurological condition.

Not qualitative, maybe, but a big enough quantitative leap to make it seem qualitative. More processing power.

I don't know if you have ever done so. I worked as a nurses' aide for several years and sat by dying patient's bedsides.

The only time was with my dad, and I didn't actually observe it - I don't think he wanted to be observed. I dozed off and Mom found him. Lights out, no one home.

There apparently are some cultures where you're not really dead for a year.

If you're genuinely interested, I'd suggest trying one of the other books on the subject.

Definitely.

I can think of several reasons:

1. Certain drugs (e.g., ketamine) can induce an altered mind state where your "soul" leaves your body.

Datura would be one substance abundantly found during the rainy season in my area - I have heard horror stories about the scary nature of the effects. It sounded too much like PCP which I took thinking it was something else. Many years ago.

4. Making up stories about the world makes things like earthquakes and volcanoes less frightening. Just toss some virgins in there and you're covered for the next ten years!

Maybe it does, but that seems kind of circular ... you have to be somewhat advanced to hold that kind of fear in "mind" and plan for it.

 

[Thor 2]

Just to put another slant on this I think the idea of living after death is horrific.

My departed mother suggested this to me when I was a child. Just imagine living in the knowledge that it will never end, just keep going on and on, for eternity. Isn't it a maddening thought!

 

[Magrat]

Just to put another slant on this I think the idea of living after death is horrific.

My departed mother suggested this to me when I was a child. Just imagine living in the knowledge that it will never end, just keep going on and on, for eternity. Isn't it a maddening thought!

My church teaches that heaven is the "real life" and this is "practice". (So does CS Lewis). Of course only those who are saved get to heaven. So I would be looking at literal eternity without my parents, without my son, either of my siblings, the love of my life...and of course no pets. I think I'd rather be damned actually.

 

[Minoosh]

We do? Mourning is a subjective experience. The only reason we hold it in common with other humans because we have a common language with which to share our experiences. What common language do we share with elephants, which gives us confidence that their outward behavior indicates the subjective experience we collectively term "mourning"?

This has been answered in one way, with the response that humans are on a continuum with other animals and that we are bound to share some emotions (whatever emotions are) with other advanced animals. But now I'm wondering about the "common language" thing. Do you mean this literally? That only through verbal communication can we communicate how it feels to mourn?

If a child is suddenly torn away from its mother and harmed, and I observe its parent wailing, tearing her own flesh, banging on her chest etc., do I really have to talk with her in her own language to have some idea of the agony she is feeling? Wouldn't the sudden ripping away of a child be similarly distressing from culture to culture, and perhaps even from species to species?

It's interesting to wonder about pre-verbal humans and whether they shared mutually recognizable emotions before they had the tool of language to compare experiences. In fact comparing experiences may be a relatively new function of language. Human beings would have practical problems to solve before they got down to rap sessions and epic poetry. I can't be sure a spontaneous smile is anything like a universal expression of happiness, but it does seem to be a shared trait across many cultures. Did cavemen smile? Did tears of grief only ever emerge after we had learned how to talk about grief?

 

[Minoosh]

My church teaches that heaven is the "real life" and this is "practice". (So does CS Lewis). Of course only those who are saved get to heaven. So I would be looking at literal eternity without my parents, without my son, either of my siblings, the love of my life...and of course no pets. I think I'd rather be damned actually.

Then what makes it "your" church? If your parents, siblings and child don't share that faith I'm wondering why you identify with the church at all. Are you cursed with faith you'd rather not have?

Lounging around on clouds doesn't seem all that fun ... but the sky is a metaphor and signifier of transcendence, infinity and eternity. It's something all humans share as opposed to local landmarks, caves, fields etc.

 

[Thor 2]

My church teaches that heaven is the "real life" and this is "practice". (So does CS Lewis). Of course only those who are saved get to heaven. So I would be looking at literal eternity without my parents, without my son, either of my siblings, the love of my life...and of course no pets. I think I'd rather be damned actually.

By referring to "my church" you run the risk of being taken for a theist RogueKitten.

I just think the idea of eternity in whatever company is insanity inducing. Even trying to contemplate infinity of distance can drive you nuts.

 

[Fudbucker]

Not qualitative, maybe, but a big enough quantitative leap to make it seem qualitative. More processing power.

The only time was with my dad, and I didn't actually observe it - I don't think he wanted to be observed. I dozed off and Mom found him. Lights out, no one home.

There apparently are some cultures where you're not really dead for a year.

Definitely.



Datura would be one substance abundantly found during the rainy season in my area - I have heard horror stories about the scary nature of the effects. It sounded too much like PCP which I took thinking it was something else. Many years ago.

Maybe it does, but that seems kind of circular ... you have to be somewhat advanced to hold that kind of fear in "mind" and plan for it.

Well, you have to be able to articulate your feelings, which assumes a certain level of cognitive development. When did humans develop speech?

 

[Fudbucker]

Just to put another slant on this I think the idea of living after death is horrific.

My departed mother suggested this to me when I was a child. Just imagine living in the knowledge that it will never end, just keep going on and on, for eternity. Isn't it a maddening thought!

It is, and I still can't decide which is worse: non-existence or perpetual existence? I comfort myself by telling myself my conception of time (eternity) is probably all messed up. That, and drinking, lol!

 

[fuelair]

See, that's the kind of cavewoman I'd probably be. Useless.

Nope - you would be teaching them how to tell time/use the stars to move from place to place and generally math their butts up for them!!!!!

 

[fuelair]

My church teaches that heaven is the "real life" and this is "practice". (So does CS Lewis). Of course only those who are saved get to heaven. So I would be looking at literal eternity without my parents, without my son, either of my siblings, the love of my life...and of course no pets. I think I'd rather be damned actually.

Don't forget your daughter!!!!! I prefer those who are invested (As they say: Jesus saves, but Moses invests!!!)!!!!!!

 

[marplots]

Every night when I dream I experience an alternate reality.