Why doesn't Jesus sound smart?

[advancedatheist]

I've read the gospels off and on since my childhood, and Jesus just never impressed me as very intelligent. He suffers in comparison with ancient poets, philosophers, statesmen and historians, whose surviving writings often reveal shrewd insights into the human condition, derived from intelligent reflections on real human behavior. Jesus' obscure parables and rants about punishing the unbelievers suffer in comparison with what you can read in the works of Plato, Thucydides, Cicero and so forth. Even christians have acknowledged Jesus' intellectual deficiencies in a backhanded way, given how they've co-opted the better products of classical culture to bolster Jesus' authority. (After all, TAG tries to rewrite history to make it look like their god invented the intellectual disciplines in fact pioneered by pagan Greeks.)

Has anyone else felt similarly about Jesus? BTW, I hope you christians realize the fallacy in the 1 Corinthians 2:14 non-answer to my question.

 

[Complexity]

He was a bot.

 

[1984]

Jesus' teachings have been passed down through hearsay - enhanced for personal, political, and spiritual gain - and perhaps simplified before being translated into other languages.

History has a tendency to recall things out of proportion to their value, and is open to revisionism. Ever read the book - 1984?

Jesus was a man of his times. From your philosophical readings, you may have hit upon the notion that what he was offering as "the son of god"* was a peaceful solution to the Jewish search for a stable and secure place they could call their home. The religious religious types among them were looking for a mighty conqueror to give them victory over the Romans. Jesus wasn't quite what they were expecting, or perhaps wanting.

IMO Jesus realised people are spiritually gullible and staged a "divine" resurrection to try and bring about a peaceable solution at the same time as fulfilling so called prophecies. He and his consorts meant well. Jesus deserves a place in history books - but only for his sheer audacity.

(* = A phrase used by Jewish kings to refer to their position as appointed by god, not literally as god incarnate in human form. Thus, Jesus was promoting himself.)

 

[teacher]

Is Jesus intelligent?

I can't really relate to what you are saying, and any specific examples would I'm sure be unrepresentative or missing the point He was making, addressing or here for.

He was not well educated (a partial answer) and did not come to focus on the sociological aspects of man, (a partial answer) yet the words I read in the Gospels compared to classic Greek scholars are more profound and superior and have an air of authority, newness and... something beyond the power of mere man to conjur up.

You never mention a single reference to anything good or nice in the Gospels or that Jesus said, yet some of the greatest atheists or agnostics or believers in other religious texts would and have claimed that it is very powerful, so it appears that you are quite biased.

I sense an air of genuineness in your original post, but I struggle a lot to agree or relate. Without writing anything himself, or starting a school, He is the most influential man ever. A life of Brian type experience would not account for such popularity. The words of the Gospels certainly might.

 

[c4ts]

Sure he got angry sometimes, but did he ever actually do anything stupid?

 

[bagtaggar]

I read in the Gospels compared to classic Greek scholars are more profound and superior and have an air of authority, newness and... something beyond the power of mere man to conjur up.

Yeah, I've read the bible quite thoroughly and I can't say I feel the same. There doesn't seem anything divine or cosmic about what he says, nor does anything he say seem "beyond the power of mere man to conjur up."

Rather, he just sounds like someone who has a deep, perhaps misguided desire to improve his societal surroundings, who really wants people to be good to one another and to worship God. None of his illustrations or sermons are any more profound than those of other religious figureheads throughout the centuries.

In fact, I personally disagree with many of Jesus teachings, and if he were alive today I would argue with him about a great many points.

He was a passionate, charming, charismatic individual with a strong message of peace. That doesn't seem beyond human to me.

 

[ceo_esq]

I suppose people will have different opinions on how profound, eloquent, intelligent, etc., appears the figure of Jesus as presented in the Gospels. It must be acknowledged, in fairness, that a great number of the most brilliant thinkers to come after Jesus have disagreed utterly with the viewpoint expressed in the OP. I'm reminded in particular of Thomas Jefferson, who attributed to Jesus "every human excellence", and who wrote "It is the innocence of His character, the purity and sublimity of His moral precepts, the eloquence of His inculcations, the beauty of the apologues in which He conveys them, that I so much admire".

 

[advancedatheist]

Sure he got angry sometimes, but did he ever actually do anything stupid?

Jesus said mainly mediocre things that might have impressed unsophisticated people in his culture. Scholars have pointed out how many of them come from the Old Testament, rabbinic teachings, popular Cynic philosophy and so forth.

BTW, I would like for someone to show me where the bible claims that Jesus' recorded sayings prove that he had more wisdom than any other human. John 21:25 asserts:

Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

But this doesn't say that Jesus set a superior standard for "wisdom," only that he had a busy life.

 

[Dorian Gray]

Jesus' teachings have been passed down through hearsay - enhanced for personal, political, and spiritual gain - and perhaps simplified before being translated into other languages.

Then how do you explain Psalms, Song of Solomon and Proverbs, all of which are complex and beautiful? Why weren't those also 'dumbed down'?

 

[jay gw]

The Judeo Christian bible has about 300 contradictions including explaining how exactly the universe came to be.

 

[BJQ87]

I do not think Jesus intended to make his message very intellectually complicated...the parables he spoke were intended for spiritual purposes. Didn't Jesus say something about coming to say and do only what God had purposed for him to say and do?

Of course to the typical philosopher usually the case is that sounding smart is of primary importance when determining greatness. And of course the universe revolves around what he/she thinks.

 

[Yahweh]

I understand what these verses are saying, but their not very well-spoken:

Matthew 5:13:

13 You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again?

Matthew 6:24:

24 No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other.

Luke 9:24:

Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.

 

[shells-on-my-eyelids]

Re:

Sure he got angry sometimes, but did he ever actually do anything stupid?

I'll go for the killing of the fig tree as the action of an willful pre-pubescent mind.

As for the statement made somewhere that Jesus was uneducated I remember a TV show some time ago making the case that as a carpenter back in the day he would not have been a man of low stature but something more akin to being a construction engineer. It would not be wholly unusual for him to have access to teachings. There is a further elaboration that Jesus was knowledgeable on the teachings from the Orient. We need us an expert. It isn't me.

Also, in truth the debate just spins out of control because we mix our terms: we are talking about Jesus as portrayed where? In which gospel? Are we thinking of him as a historical figure? The actual son of God? A fiction? Are we just talking about the sum of words attributed to him as teachings? Or actions? Let's define our terms.

I'll admit that i've no lesson, nor piece of information, nor learning from the bible that I have taken forth into the world. Perhaps someone here would like to quote us something very profound. I don't mean this as a trick for us to be sneery.

 

[a_unique_person]

Jesus sounds smart to me, he reminds me of the Budda and Confucious. As Shemp said, Xianity was a cult that got lucky.

 

[Rufo]

Jesus' obscure parables and rants about punishing the unbelievers suffer in comparison with what you can read in the works of Plato, Thucydides, Cicero and so forth.

It's a bit unfair to compare him to these people. Jesus is not remembered as being a great author or philosopher (though I think his philosophy, of which much was indeed borrowed, is interesting) but as a religious leader. You're comparing him to people who is remembered for being smart. Intelligence wasn't his number one quality.

Jesus said mainly mediocre things that might have impressed unsophisticated people in his culture. Scholars have pointed out how many of them come from the Old Testament, rabbinic teachings, popular Cynic philosophy and so forth.

Hm. Let's see. Here's a jewish man coming to preach for the jewish people. And he talks about things from the Torah. Exactly what kind of 'scholars' were needed to point out that he used the Old Testament and rabbinic teachings?
I don't know about you, but I don't really find it wierd that he says things taken from his own religion. It's not like he despised the Old Testament, he more saw it as his mission to 'fullfill' it.

 

[a_unique_person]

That is where it gets interesting. The implication is that he was going to move it on to the next leve. But did he really say that, or was that implication added by xian theologians doctoring the record?

 

[kmortis]

Then how do you explain Psalms, Song of Solomon and Proverbs, all of which are complex and beautiful? Why weren't those also 'dumbed down'?

psst, Dorian, Proverbs, Song of Songs and the Psalms weren't Jesus's sayings. I now return to to your regularly scheduled thread.

 

[Ossai]

kmortis

psst, Dorian, Proverbs, Song of Songs and the Psalms weren't Jesus's sayings. I now return to to your regularly scheduled thread.

That was the point. Why were Jesus’s teachings, parables, etc dumbed down when entire other sections were not?

Ossai

 

[l0rca]

Wasn't Jesus a poor jew living inside the Roman Empire? How educated do you want him to sound?

Besides, I read there was a study done comparing his saying in the gospel to other historical quotes, and 60% of his original quotes came up fraudulent, and they couldn't trace the other 40% (which means 40% were probably not his. Probably somewhere less than 40% were.)

 

[kmortis]

kmortis

That was the point. Why were Jesus’s teachings, parables, etc dumbed down when entire other sections were not?

Ossai

Oh..I broke my cardinal rule: Never post before at least two full cups of coffee.