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Why Does the ACLU Waste It's Time?

Tony

Penultimate Amazing
Joined
Mar 5, 2003
Messages
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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119035,00.html ...full article

REDLANDS, Calif. — For the past 40 years, the cross has been a part of the city logo of Redlands, Calif. (search) It appears on government buildings, official stationary and police uniforms, but according to the American Civil Liberties Union (search), it has to go.

"For a city seal to contain a sectarian religious symbol that reflects the views of only one segment of the community reflects an endorsement of a religion, and it's not constitutional," said Ben Wisner of the ACLU.


Not to diminish the importance of this, but why does the ACLU pursue these types of things when real infringements on civil rights are occurring? Shouldn't they devote more resources to the more important battles?
 
Tony said:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119035,00.html ...full article




Not to diminish the importance of this, but why does the ACLU pursue these types of thing when there are real infringements on civil rights are occurring? Shouldn't they devote more resources to the more important battles?
Just out of interest, how does the ACLU take on these cases? Does it choose them or does someone have to ask? Also, what would you say are the more important battles?
 
Re: Re: Why Does the ACLU Waste It's Time?

BillyTK said:

Just out of interest, how does the ACLU take on these cases? Does it choose them or does someone have to ask?

I think it's a little of both, but I might be wrong.

Also, what would you say are the more important battles?

Fighting drug laws, fighting mandatory minimums, fighting "decency laws" and the FCC, the Patriot Act (to name a few), stuff that is actually a tangible threat to civil rights.
 
The ACLU can do more than one thing at once. They have many branches and lawyers. The police can give our speeding tickets and look for muderers. It doesnt have to be one of the other.

What are these other more important issues they shoudl be focusing on???

The Church/State spit has been a hard fought battle for the ACLU. And they constantly have to fight forthe position.
 
"What are these other more important issues they shoudl be focusing on???"

The ACLU has found themselves too busy with 'important' issues like the city seal of Redlands (over the years), to get involved in all sorts of issues that probably seemed more important to the people involved, ranging from the internment of American citizens of Japanese heritage during WWII, to the treatment of 'guestworkers' and migrant workers today.

Of course it is their call.

Paul
 
The ACLU needs to do more PR. That sounds superficial but in the end it helps funding and also public opinion (which eventually helps their legal battles...judges and juries are people).

I have many times seen Bill O'Reilly slam the ACLU up one side and then down the other and then say "As usual, the ACLU declined our invitation to appear on the show." The first fifty times I saw that I let it slide but now I find it downright annoying. All they have to do is send a semi-intelligent, semi-articulate representative on the show when invited and they'll be able to greatly improve their image in the minds of a lot of people. It bugs me that they completely ignore this important aspect of their existence.
 
crimresearch said:
"What are these other more important issues they shoudl be focusing on???"

The ACLU has found themselves too busy with 'important' issues like the city seal of Redlands (over the years), to get involved in all sorts of issues that probably seemed more important to the people involved, ranging from the internment of American citizens of Japanese heritage during WWII, to the treatment of 'guestworkers' and migrant workers today.

Of course it is their call.

Paul
The ACLU actively fought against Japanese internment in WWII and "Immigrant rights" is one of their main theme issues (of about 15). With involvement in more than 5000 cases a year they are involved in so many things what most people hear about is more a refelction of what the media chooses to report rather than what the ACLU is really focused upon.
 
Is the city of Redlands is only 40 years old??

The story comes from FoxNews so its 1/2 bunk. They have it out forthe ACLU. Im sure they werent bitching when they backed Limbaugh.

I remeber Fox had a story about teh ACLU banning Santa from public schools. That was BS. THey forgot to mention that THE one Santa they wanted banned was a religious freak who was trying to get public school kids to become christians. AS if thats gonna fly as appropriate.
 
I didn't even know the ACLU even existed until last year, but I'm glad they do. In March of last year myself and a few friends (about 10 total) started wearing black armbands to our high school to protest the war. They went pretty much unnoticed for us, but a few of my other friends who attended a different high school were kicked out for wearing them. They immediately contacted the ALCU who jumped to their aid, which I thought was pretty spiffy of them. I also remember in the past when Rush Limbaugh was in trouble they offered to help him out to make sure all of his rights were still intact. I'm not positive of the exact events as they occured, but just the fact that they're willing to help out one of their biggest critics in order to do what they think is right says a lot to me.

As for publicity, I don't think they should be worried to much about it. I'm a big fan of the old worn out saying that "actions speak louder than words." So let them keep fighting for the rights of everyone. That puts across a great message in my book. No speaking engagements required.

Doug
 
nineinchnails_999 said:

I'm a big fan of the old worn out saying that "actions speak louder than words."


I agree 100%, which is why I am skeptical of the ACLU's claim that they defend the Bill of Rights. They may say they defend the Bill of Rights, but a quick look at their "interpretation" of the 2nd amendment gives me reason to believe otherwise. Nevertheless, I still support their mission.
 
Actions only speak louder than words to those who observe the actions. Everyone else relies on hearing words to learn what actions were taken.

When Bill O'Reilly goes on TV and says the ACLU is taking sleazy actions and then says the ACLU refused to come on and talk about their actions then some viewers naturally conclude that the ACLU is taking sleazy actions.
 
Because they are:

- bitter loner, loser lawyer rejects who want attention
- socialite Ivy League show-off lawyers who want attention


Two groups of extremists with the common goal of getting attention, and becoming very wealthy in the process, at the expense of the comparatively good people from whom they leech.


I look to the day when this country decides it has had enough of them and their activist judge pals, and the voters change the system to throw them all out of their profession to go work in, oh, let's say... part-time temporary jobs in the Sears matress sales department at a run-down strip mall. No more Manhattan cocktail parties... boo-hoo for them.
 
"The ACLU actively fought against Japanese internment in WWII and "Immigrant rights" is one of their main theme issues (of about 15). With involvement in more than 5000 cases a year they are involved in so many things what most people hear about is more a refelction of what the media chooses to report rather than what the ACLU is really focused upon."

Sorry, but that is revisionist history. I'm sure that the ACLU *wishes* that they had lead the charge against the relocation of Japanese Americans instead of bringing up the rear with a losing effort after reversing their earlier reluctance..

"In the meantime, Baldwin and the ACLU wrestled with the issue of internment of Japanese-Americans and Japanese aliens, which had been demanded by the U.S. military. In contrast to many of his longtime colleagues at the ACLU, Baldwin continued to challenge such violations of civil liberties, but he also sought to maintain good relations with the federal government. "
http://www.harvardsquarelibrary.org/unitarians/baldwin_r.html

From the JACL 10 points:
"the ACLU decided against a test case, and they are champions of civil liberties "

And from the ACLU attorney A.L. Wirin on the ACLU's helping the JACL with internment (evacuation) cases:
" We are particularly interested in the suggestion that the JACL appear as a friend of the court in the Native Sons' and other suits against our civil rights. That does not refer to the evacuation cases. "
" http://www.javoice.com/limreport/LimPartIIA.htm"


'Immigrant rights' to vote and get driver's licenses and public education is an entirely different issue from 'migrant workers' which include many people who are American born citizens and yet are denied protection of OSHA, the EEOC, etc. by legislation that the ACLU will not challenge, and by illegal actions such as violent attacks, and forced labor, that the ACLU, along with politicans and corporate interests, ignores and therby tacitly condones.

As I said, it is their choice to choose who they ignore, and turn down, but to claim that the ACLU does not ignore and turn down important isssues is a crock.

Paul
 
crimresearch said:
"The ACLU actively fought against Japanese internment in WWII and "Immigrant rights" is one of their main theme issues (of about 15). With involvement in more than 5000 cases a year they are involved in so many things what most people hear about is more a refelction of what the media chooses to report rather than what the ACLU is really focused upon."

Sorry, but that is revisionist history. I'm sure that the ACLU *wishes* that they had lead the charge against the relocation of Japanese Americans instead of bringing up the rear with a losing effort after reversing their earlier reluctance..

"In the meantime, Baldwin and the ACLU wrestled with the issue of internment of Japanese-Americans and Japanese aliens, which had been demanded by the U.S. military. In contrast to many of his longtime colleagues at the ACLU, Baldwin continued to challenge such violations of civil liberties, but he also sought to maintain good relations with the federal government. "
http://www.harvardsquarelibrary.org/unitarians/baldwin_r.html
"Wrestled with" could mean all sorts of things. Considering they were all loosing cases and there was even friction with some oddly patriotic Japanese over the ACLU's court fights against internment I think you just made up your own meaning from a very ambiguous paragraph. Is the implied contrast between Baldwin and his collegues that "he also sought to maintain good relations with the federal government" while they all continued to fight for civil liberties?

From the JACL 10 points:
"the ACLU decided against a test case, and they are champions of civil liberties "

And from the ACLU attorney A.L. Wirin on the ACLU's helping the JACL with internment (evacuation) cases:
" We are particularly interested in the suggestion that the JACL appear as a friend of the court in the Native Sons' and other suits against our civil rights. That does not refer to the evacuation cases. "
" http://www.javoice.com/limreport/LimPartIIA.htm"
That seems like a manipulative use of a link to me, the JACL was opposed to test cases so what they say about the ACLU's position is suspect and the reason for the ACLU not asking them to appear in test cases is without the meaning you imply. Here's the opening to that link:

The issue of what JACL's position on a legal test case was clearly and unequivocally spelled out in Bulletin #142 of the JACL, Office of the National Secretary, dated April 7, 1942. This particular bulletin, issued and signed by Mike Masaoka in his capacity as National Secretary and Field Executive is entitled RE: TEST CASES. It specifically discusses the facts of Min Yasui's case. The third paragraph of the three page bulletin states:

National Headquarters is unalterably opposed to test cases to determine the constitutionality of military regulations at this time. We have reached this decision unanimously after examining all the facts in light of our national policy of: "the greatest good for the greatest number."112




Here's the abstract of a document that I think paints a much more complete picture of what the ACLU was up to:

Fighting the Japanese Internment in Federal Court:
The A.C.L.U. During World War II
R. Jeffrey Blair
jeffreyb@dpc.aichi-gakuin.ac.jp
Aichi Gakuin University
Nagoya, Japan

An earlier paper (Blair, 1999) describes the background of the Japanese Internment and the efforts of the American Civil Liberties Union to lobby against it before legislatures and the public. This paper describes the organization¹s efforts to litigate in the courts against curfews imposed on the West Coast Japanese, their evacuation, and their internment in camps.

Three Caucasian groups in the United States--the Fair Play Committee (Shidler, 1952), the American Friends Service Committee, and the American Civil Liberties Union (Blair, 1999 and McDaid, 1969)--recognized the grave injustice of the Japanese Internment carried out during the Second World War. All three attempted to defend the reputation of Japanese (this term will include all ethnic Japanese regardless of citizenship) on the West Coast and to mitigate the impact of the United States government's shameful and racist policy. When the political battle was lost, the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) continued this fight in the courts. Since the legal issues under dispute concerned federal policy, all litigation took place in the federal courts--United States district courts, appeals courts, and the U.S. Supreme Court. (For convenience and the sake of brevity, the term "United States" will usually be omitted when referring to these courts.)

In the first half of 1942, the ACLU national office prodded its three West Coast branches to find evacuation test cases and bring them to litigation. All three complied enthusiastically. Seattle took up the defense of Minoru Yasui and Gordon Hirabayashi; San Francisco found Fred Korematsu and Mitsuye Endo; and Los Angles argued the cause of Earnest Wakayama.
http://www.aichi-gakuin.ac.jp/~jeffreyb/research/ACLU.two.abref.html#head

'Immigrant rights' to vote and get driver's licenses and public education is an entirely different issue from 'migrant workers' which include many people who are American born citizens and yet are denied protection of OSHA, the EEOC, etc. by legislation that the ACLU will not challenge, and by illegal actions such as violent attacks, and forced labor, that the ACLU, along with politicans and corporate interests, ignores and therby tacitly condones.

As I said, it is their choice to choose who they ignore, and turn down, but to claim that the ACLU does not ignore and turn down important isssues is a crock.

Paul [/B]
What specific legislation do you think the ACLU will not challenge. I am unfamilar with the specifics of what you are referring to. I also never claimed the ACLU doesn't turn down/ignore importnat issues, with finite resources in a world full of injustice that seems unavoidable. :(
 

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