Why does JG continue to believe ??

[AOK Tiger]

I think we have hit upon one of the fundamental problems believers in the paranormal have.

The ability to divorce their experience from reality.

Justgeoff is GREAT example of this

He is NOT an idiot.. nor is he insane, mentally disturbed or delusional.
He is not trying to blow his own trumpet with some mysterious power (see Luci).
He does not have some weird matrix type approach to life (see I-Ian)
He is not a liar or a fraud and stands to gain NO money etc..
In most things he maintains a lucid rational grasp on reality.. yet..

He has had an experience that was SO real to him he has abandoned a rational approach to explaining the experience.

He refuses to accept that the experience could purely be in his own mind.

Maybe its ego (I can’t possibly be delusional)
Maybe it’s a need (I want the paranormal to be true)
Maybe it’s a slight mental disorder ?

Whatever it is.. it goes to the heart of WHY belief in the paranormal is so prevalent. If rational humans can “believe” it would be very handy to understand why.

Unfortunately JG ONLY accepts his paranormal experience as reality so it is hard to get a handle on it.

It is disappointing that JG has put up the shutters on his experience and shows that maybe NEED to hang on it is the most prevalent factor in maintaining the delusion…

Rational discussion WOULD be helpful to him and I believe helpful to us as an insight into understanding why belief is maintained !!

 

[CFLarsen]

Aussie Thinker,

Quite agree.

 

[Anders W. Bonde]

Hear, hear!

 

[UndercoverElephant]

Maybe its ego (I can’t possibly be delusional)
Maybe it’s a need (I want the paranormal to be true)
Maybe it’s a slight mental disorder ?

Maybe it's because it really happened?

And yes, if such things really happen it certainly does go to the heart of why so many people, including rational people, believe in the paranormal.

 

[Lucianarchy]

I think we have hit upon one of the fundamental problems believers in the paranormal have.

The ability to divorce their experience from reality.

You forgot one thing. Maybe the experience was real.

I, and many other sceptics have experienced similar real events.

You are making the fallacy that you are right and others are wrong. It is a belief based on the religion of Scientism.

Once, most people no doubt thought they'd fall off the edge off the world.

The further humanity is prepared to walk, the further they real-ise, they can.

 

[Lothian]

Re: Re: Why does JG continue to believe ??

You forgot one thing. Maybe the experience was real.

I, and many other sceptics have experienced similar real events.

You are making the fallacy that you are right and others are wrong. It is a belief based on the religion of Scientism.

Once, most people no doubt thought they'd fall off the edge off the world.

The further humanity is prepared to walk, the further they real-ise, they can.

And you are making the fallacy of confusing cause and effect.

 

[CFLarsen]

Re: Re: Why does JG continue to believe ??

Maybe it's because it really happened?

Maybe. However, you have just admitted that the evidence that your experience was real depends on peoples personal testimony. Which you have admitted that you cannot rely on.

Down in flames you go.

I, and many other sceptics have experienced similar real events.

You are not a skeptic, no matter how you spell it. You are deluded lying fraud.

 

[Mercutio]

Re: Re: Why does JG continue to believe ??

Maybe it's because it really happened?

And yes, if such things really happen it certainly does go to the heart of why so many people, including rational people, believe in the paranormal.

This reminds me, I still need to post my story of how I became a born-again christian...then eventually, a strong atheist. Personal experience is extraordinarily powerful, but its salience need not correlate with validity. When we look at the social psychology of belief formation, we can easily see how malleable our personal perceptions, memories, and beliefs are. I was once ready to swear in court that I had been beaten by [person X], who had a very distinctive appearance--one I would swear I could never forget. In a matter of moments, I found irrefutably that I had the wrong man (the right one showed up); I learned (ironically, through personal experience) that personal experience--even powerful personal experience--is not the bedrock we think it is. "I saw it with my own eyes--I know it is real" is tough to argue against, because it is so powerful, but decades of research show that it is not good evidence.

 

[Psi Baba]

Re: Re: Re: Why does JG continue to believe ??

This reminds me, I still need to post my story of how I became a born-again christian...then eventually, a strong atheist.

I would be very interested in reading that, Mercutio. Perhaps you could give it its own thread.

 

[Mercutio]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Why does JG continue to believe ??

I would be very interested in reading that, Mercutio. Perhaps you could give it its own thread.

I plan to--I promised MLynn and Bearguin. I'm just waiting for the re-organization first.

 

[Ed]

I think we have hit upon one of the fundamental problems believers in the paranormal have.



Rational discussion WOULD be helpful to him and I believe helpful to us as an insight into understanding why belief is maintained !!

Self delusion is a human trait. Think of all the spouses of druggies or alcholics that say "it's not so bad" or "he/she is working on it". And think of all the spouses of cheating husbands/wives. I can understand the "why" of cases like these, I really have a hard time understanding the "why" of believer in the paranormal.

 

[Peter S.]

Re: Re: Why does JG continue to believe ??

Maybe it's because it really happened? ...

We are cetainly willing to entertain the idea that it really happened, (all we need is a little evidence).

You on the other hand seem unwilling to entertain the idea that it didn't.

 

[chrisberez]

I think we have hit upon one of the fundamental problems believers in the paranormal have.

The ability to divorce their experience from reality.

Justgeoff is GREAT example of this

He is NOT an idiot.. nor is he insane, mentally disturbed or delusional.

I think Michael Shermer put it best when he said, basicly, that smart people believe weird things because they're good at defending beliefs they arrived at for nonsmart reasons. I don't think I've had much experience with JG, but you say he's intelligent and I'll take you at your word. Shermer's analysis, I think, would apply to him and to many others that for whatever reason have come to convince themselves about one pysudoscientific claim or another. But I think ego comes into it too. Humans fool easily. And once you've become convinced of something that serves what you feel as an important role in your life, it becomes increasly difficult and frightening to let it go. Hense, finding intelligent ways to defend that belief.

 

[kittynh]

Chris, that is very insightful. I remember seeing people with ghosts on tv, and thinking, "ok, why don't you move out?" They didn't seem afraid, they seemed to think it made their home special. whenever I have investigated ghost claims, and I have to admit it hasn't been nearly the number of Joe Nickell, I've found two types of people. The first are honestly puzzled. they have something happening that can't explain. I find people can't live without an explaination. So, they (or someone else) fills in one. It's a ghost. Or poltergeist. Usually it is quite boring, but they are happy to accept an explaination when I give them one.

then there are those that make the ghost a part of their life. In fact, I dare say their sense of self worth. Defending the ghost become personal. These people usually work up elaborate tales of who or what the ghost is. The more elaborate the story, the more fishy it smells. But these people really believe. I usually start by checking their story with the local historical society. Did a child named "Christine" really die in the house? I check the facts. Then I go about trying to figure out what is really causing the sighting or whatever is claimed. Usually it's just a cat, or old houses are funny. The squeak, door stick, windows fall down, the window glass is old and reflects strangely....

A real believer, that has this myth as a part of their life, that uses it to define his or her life, will not accept any explaination that takes away that from them.

I was reading a UFO book by a young woman. She believes in UFOs, but then again, how can she not. Her entire life has been devoted to watching for the visitors. She has had books published, and been on many tv talk shows. It is her life. I think many homeopaths are the same. They've invested years of their lives. If they got really sick, I rather think they'd do what many homeopathic practicioners do and "compine" traditional and homeopathic treatments.

Have I ever had what might be termed a paranormal experience? Yes! Many times. I'm just smart enough to understand that there have been many many many more times that something paranormal has NOT happened! My explaination is that as much as I would like to think that special stuff happens to me, I logically think that sometimes weird stuff just happens to me. And happens to everyone.

 

[chrisberez]

Wow, that's really neat that you actually get out to investigate these things. I've always thought it would be really neat to go with someone and investigate a case. That's the joy of science, isn't it? Figuring things out? I think the current Skeptical Inquirer has an article on this note. Anyway, there's just something so fundamentally satisfying about solving a puzzle or problem.

With ghosts, there's also probably the whole "mortality" thing at work too. Sometimes you hear about "scary" or "evil" feelings associated with ghosts; but more often than not, people see the experience as being positive. People, like all organisms, don't want to die- they want to survive. If there are ghosts, then there's proof that death isn't then end and there's nothing to fear. If there are aliens, we aren't alone in the universe. We are more than just a happy accident.

So yeah, I would probably go one step further and say that the people that believe these things need to believe these things for various emotion reasons other than embarrassment.

 

[AOK Tiger]

JG & Luci,

I DO allow for your paranormal experiences to be REAL…

That is one of the possibilities.

But then to allow for something fantastic to be real I have to follow up with…

Is their ANY corroborating evidence.. NO
Are their any witnesses .. NO
Is the past changing logical .. NO
Does it fit within the realms of KNOWN science.. NO

In the COMPLETE absence of any support the allowance for the phenomena to be real diminishes.. in fact it fades into complete insignificance.

 

[AOK Tiger]

It IS important we understand WHY the JG’s of this world promote the paranormal.

The raving loony who declares he is Napoleon is NO danger.. even JG admits he is easily and obviously dismissed.

JG on the other IS lucid and FEEDS the little woo woo in a HUGE number of people. He feeds that need most humans seem to possess.. a NEED for the woo…

(It boils down to survival instinct.. ever noticed most woo revolves around continuance of existence)

So it must be made CLEAR to the JG’s of this world and anyone who will listen to them that their paranormal experience has NO more basis in reality than the loonies.. just because they can talk about it more eloquently…

The PAST changing is just as woo as a guy claiming to be Napoleon.. it is just as impossible.. just as illogical and just as OBVIOUS to anyone that it can NOT happen.

 

[Interesting Ian]

[He does not have some weird matrix type approach to life (see I-Ian)

What a complete arse you are.

 

[Interesting Ian]

Re: Re: Why does JG continue to believe ??

I think Michael Shermer put it best when he said, basicly, that smart people believe weird things because they're good at defending beliefs they arrived at for nonsmart reasons. I don't think I've had much experience with JG, but you say he's intelligent and I'll take you at your word. Shermer's analysis, I think, would apply to him and to many others that for whatever reason have come to convince themselves about one pysudoscientific claim or another. But I think ego comes into it too. Humans fool easily. And once you've become convinced of something that serves what you feel as an important role in your life, it becomes increasly difficult and frightening to let it go. Hense, finding intelligent ways to defend that belief.

{sighs}

Oh God

What complete nonsense people spew forth. Oh well, s'long as it sounds profound . .

 

[AOK Tiger]

What a complete arse you are.

LOL.. probably…

You are another “interesting” woo woo also.

I think you come in under the “ego” banner.

You have established an interesting philosophy on life which, although it is COMPLETELY unsupported by reality, logic and science, you stick to faithfully. It is YOURS and it is a little elitist and it makes you feel good to KNOW what we all don’t.

It is strongly influenced by the basic human survival instinct also (I don’t wanna just have it all end here).. note it included a “life after death theme”.. or probably more like.. there is no “life” or “death”..

But aside from its pleasing (to you) aspect it bears no resemblance to the physical reality of the world.

You are another person who it is important to understand.. treating paranormal myopia is not easy and the more people we study who suffer from it (especially the more intelligent types like you) the better of we will be.