Why big rock and not little rock?

PygmyPlaidGiraffe

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Why G-D and not Ra, Baal or Asherah?

I just took in a session during a mandatory "Spiritual Development Day" that was interesting. I teach in a Catholic school district. The department head of Religion Studies presented an intriguing look at the development of religion in Isreal. He is involved in archeological digs in Isreal and is a student of the discipline.

The first religious objects discovered in Isreal come from small settlements founded 8000 BCE. Religion developed in several directions and a monotheistic belief system eventually formed in the region. Presented was a theoretical framework of a variety of fertility cults, borrowed gods and deities, reforms, backsliding, and new reforms that resulted in the formation of the worship of G-D.

The Habiriu were a diverse group of peoples, and those that had a special covenant with Yhwh and settled to form Isreal were just one of many Habiriu groups.

Of interesting note was Hezekiah's reforms. He removed a deity called Asherah from Hebrew literature, and removed references to her from Temples and moved to remove her from the theology alltogether. He forbade women making offerings to Asherah to ensure a safe and healthy childbirth and for children to survive birth and there infant years.

Asherah was Yahweh's mate. Prior to the reform oblisks or large stone pillars were placed in temples. A large one represented Yahweh, a smaller more humble one, Asherah. Yahweh divorced Asherah, and Asherah married Baal, bearing Baal children (monsters). Yahweh and Baal were at war.

Hezekiah made moves also to prevent contamination from other favoured deities like Astarte (which resembled Isis).

Exodus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, usually attributed to Moses, were likely written during post-reform after a period of backsliding (treacherous apostate Manasseh) and then a conservative response later to the backsliding (by Josiah, Hebrew leadership, and the Levites). Deuteronic reform entrenched during Babylonian captivity.

The story of Elijah (Yahweh camp) vs Jezebel (Baal camp) in 1Kings illustrates a power struggle. There is a show-down at Mount Carmel, where the lone Elijah faces down and obliterates hundreds of Baals prophets.
 
Any insights into possible distinctions between YHWH, El Shaddai, and possibly Elohim (a plural?).

How about Rahab, behemoth, and leviathan?

Not to neglect Tehom/Tiamat....
 
Kullervo said:
Any insights into possible distinctions between YHWH, El Shaddai, and possibly Elohim (a plural?).

How about Rahab, behemoth, and leviathan?

Not to neglect Tehom/Tiamat....

A lot of religions in the middle east share parallels for Genesis stories, deluge stories, power struggles, and stories of people's delivery from oppression. Sumerian, Akkadian et al, and Egyptian folklore were drawn upon by the Habiriu as they developed their folklore.

An extensive read about fertility cults and the archeological evidence in the middle east will shed light on how important deities became to bring water and good growing seasons and prosperity. Deities are renamed, heros renamed, places renamed, temples re-commisioned, as cultures encountered traders or were either assimilated or did their own assimilating of cultures.

Tiamat for example became a template for deities in the belief systems of many kingdoms that waxed and waned over the millenia in the middle east.
 
How about a non-extensive read? My last reading was Understanding Genesis by Sarna, back in 1971 or thereabouts.
 
Diogenes said:
Wow..

How does the Catholic illuminati reconcile this with church tradition?

Or, are they just hoping the laity won't notice?

I don't think the Catholic church is the homogenous behemeuth that a lot of people believe it to be. Many members of the Church pursue disciplines, and the history of Church involvement in the pursuit of historical or scientific knowledge is extensive. The thing is that the Catholic Church is not a vehicle of rapid dynamic change in terms of human lifespans. For some in the institution change happens too fast, for others too slow.

What is Catholic tradition after all but the attempt to incorperate the varying beliefs and practices of Judaism, Christ's teachings, and pagan practices over the centuries to make Christianity appealing to a diverse population, and build a church body.

Constantine accomadated. Popes accomadated. St. Patrick accomadated.

The Catholic Church does not appear to be flexible, but really, looking at the scope of things in almost 2000 years of Church history, the Church corperation has made a lot of compromises. Good business sense. More souls = more wealth to expand its influence. There may be some recent examples of modern corperations that could challenge the Church's level of success, but the Church will retain its place as the most successful corperation in the last 2000 years.
 
As an exercise,

substitute all instances of references to G-D or Yhwy or Father in the 1st 5 books or the Bible (G, E, L, N, and D) with

Yahweh and Asherah

for example

When Yahweh and Asherah began to create the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the wind of Yahweh and the wind of Asherah were moving over the face of the waters.

Genesis itself is filled with duality. 2 accounts of creation for example. 2 accounts of the flood story. Having two deities may account for the duality. Something to think about.

Genesis 26a:
And Yahweh and Asherah said, "Let us make man in our image,after our likeness..."
 
PygmyPlaidGiraffe said:


A lot of religions in the middle east share parallels for Genesis stories, deluge stories, power struggles, and stories of people's delivery from oppression. Sumerian, Akkadian et al, and Egyptian folklore were drawn upon by the Habiriu as they developed their folklore.

An extensive read about fertility cults and the archeological evidence in the middle east will shed light on how important deities became to bring water and good growing seasons and prosperity. Deities are renamed, heros renamed, places renamed, temples re-commisioned, as cultures encountered traders or were either assimilated or did their own assimilating of cultures.

Tiamat for example became a template for deities in the belief systems of many kingdoms that waxed and waned over the millenia in the middle east.

What you say makes sense.. I'm just trying to absorb a Catholic sponsored lecture series, where they are presenting evidence that pretty much says " We made this whole God thing up.. " ( with a little help )
 
Kullervo said:
How about a non-extensive read? My last reading was Understanding Genesis by Sarna, back in 1971 or thereabouts.

how about this as a start?:)


books on Asherah, a Semitic deity by

Judith M. Hadley
Saul M. Olyan
Walter A. Maier
Richard J. Pettey
Steve A. Wiggins
 
Kullervo said:
How about Rahab, behemoth, and leviathan?

Not to neglect Tehom/Tiamat....

Everyone here is already aware there are 5 distinct authors/meddlers writing the first five books. (J, E, P, D, R)

J (Jahwist) appears to be the oldest (and possibly a woman). J includes the story of Adam/Eve and Eden. However the J cosmology is missing from this story. (Everything just begins in the Garden. There is no explanation of a beginning) R (Redactor), most likely replaced the J cosmology tale with a P (Priestly) tale.

So if the J story is missing what could it have been? Some clues may be in Psalms and Isaiah - where there is talk of Rahab/Leviathan.

If we were to guess about J's cosmology - it would have Yahweh battling and slaying a behemoth in the ocean (chaos). (The Redactors god would never stoop so low as to battle a sea creature - so it was removed.)

There is even a reference that says Yahweh used the meat from the beast to feed the multitude in the wilderness. (Psalm 74) In other words, manna is Leviathan meat sent from heaven!

Tiamat is the Babylonian Rahab. Marduk is the Babylonian Yahweh who battles and slays Tiamet.
 
triadboy said:


Everyone here is already aware there are 5 distinct authors/meddlers writing the first five books. (J, E, P, D, R)


Everyone might, but I doubt it.

I only became aware of this when I read an analysis of the Bible by Asimov about a decade ago. Churchs are not exactly advertising this to their congregations.

There is evidence that diversity of authorship is certain, other evidence that is far from certain.

One piece of evidence is the diverse names and phrases used to refer to deity in the Pentateuch. Variations in style are evident throughout and within each of Moses' 5 books only make sense if there are different sources.
Also apparant is that Moses writes about his own death (Deuteronomy 34)!

Why have the five books been attributed to Moses? Bliblical Maximalists interpreted this ambiguous passage in

Deuteronomy 31:9

"Moses wrote this Law (Torah) and gave it to the Levites...."

as evidence that Moses gave all text that preceded this passage to the priests.

What do some of the narritives in Genesis use in referring to Deity?

here is the duality showing again:

Yahweh (J source)
El / Elohim (E source)

indicating two sources. But is it that simple? Many sections of Genesis do not mention Deity at all. Another source? An error? A deletion? Who edited or who can this ostensibly different sourse be attributed to? Is it the P-Source, added post-conservative reform when Asherah was written out of Genesis?

Placing a finger on sources gets less simple beyond Genesis. The D (Deuteronomy) source plays little or no role in the previous four books, but evidence of D source exists in Joshua, Judges, Samuel, and Kings.

Kings.

Written in post reform, illustrating a power struggle between Yahweh's prophet/s and followers and Baal's prophets/followers. How much was deleted from the first four books?

Were there other books that were totally removed?
During conservative religious reform what was lost, as it was deamed unpalatable by the leadership and preistly strata? Did books focused on Asherah and Baal perish? Were most references that placed Canaanite Deities in a favourable light removed?

In 1929 the Ras Shamra tablets were discovered at the site of an ancient city called Ugarit . A baal temple was also found at the site. On the tablets, Canaanite myths recorded in 4 languages. Akkadian, Hurrian, Sumerian, and Ugaritic. The tablets illustrated a polytheistic religion. The major players:

El, Asherah, Baal, Mot, Anath, and 65 other deities or heroes.
 
PygmyPlaidGiraffe said:
Everyone might, but I doubt it.

There is evidence that diversity of authorship is certain, other evidence that is far from certain.

I don't understand.

You seem to say you agree there is a J and E strain throughout the first five books. Then you say D had something to do with the 5th book. Then you wonder when P inserted his writing.

All that is left is R (probably Ezra). You agreed with everything I said - but you opened up saying you didn't agree. I'm confused by your answer.
 
PygmyPlaidGiraffe said:


Many sections of Genesis do not mention Deity at all. Another source? An error? A deletion? Who edited or who can this ostensibly different sourse be attributed to? Is it the P-Source, added post-conservative reform when Asherah was written out of Genesis?




To edit :)
The R source (redactor, or editor) can also be considered. The R source is ambiguous at best. I don't know of any evidence that could attribute it to Ezra. Speculation will abound in regards to this source. Was it Levites? The Vatican? Millenium Cultists? I don't know.
Consider how often the Bible has been edited since the Protestant Reformation. Diverse Versions are pumped out by all the cults and churches that break away from parent chuches. Depending on power struggles and the implementation of reforms the Pentateuch could have been edited every generation post-reform.


What I was presenting was a limited illustration of why someone might come to the conclusion that there is a diversity of authorship given the evidence which I barely touched on with the examples a gave. I was neither agreeing nor disagreeing with everything you said.
 
gah!

well might as well use this space


Just to add

The evidence that speaks to diversity of authorship of the Bible is stronger than the evidence that ther was one author. I don't think it is absolute, there are holes, there are inconsistancies. Thats to be expected as the study of the sources is relatively new.

I think this was along the lines of Asimov's take on this issue too.

What is more likely?

The Pentateuch's author is G-D.

The author is Moses, inspired by G-D.

The author was Aaron, inspired by G-D.

The author was Joshua, inspired by Moses and G-D.

It is a compilation of polytheistic Akkadian, Semitic Canaanite, Sumerian, and Egyptian myths passed on by oral tradition until recorded by no less than four author sources and edited by Priests during reformations.
 
Re: As an exercise,

PygmyPlaidGiraffe said:
substitute all instances of references to G-D or Yhwy or Father in the 1st 5 books or the Bible (G, E, L, N, and D) with

Yahweh and Asherah

for example

When Yahweh and Asherah began to create the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the wind of Yahweh and the wind of Asherah were moving over the face of the waters.

Genesis itself is filled with duality. 2 accounts of creation for example. 2 accounts of the flood story. Having two deities may account for the duality. Something to think about.

Genesis 26a:
And Yahweh and Asherah said, "Let us make man in our image,after our likeness..."

This part of the kabbalah, in some forms Adam and Eve were created at the same time, and God seperated them with an axe, supposedly female genetalia are the mark of the axe strike.

Also in kabbalah there are two craetions because god destroyed the first creation when he extended justice(the forth sphere) without mercy(the fifth sphere) as a result first creationwas destroyed by fire.

Asherah, has roots in the kabbalah as weel, there are stories of Lilith the first wife of god. may of the hebraic tribes were not monthiestic, they worshiped a pantheon of gods, in fact AL is the primium mobile and there are at least two layers before you get to YHVH and AZRH.

Most of the polytheism has been removed, there is a theory that the dead sea scrolls are actualy from saducees(not Essenes) and that they portray a polytheistic hebrew tradition.

Which makes sense the hebrew were a nomadic people in contact with the people of Cana'an and they probably shared many of the same tradiations.

Ba'al means Lord so when you read the word Ba'al there is probably a missing word like Ba'al Auor (Lord of light). YHVH was probably not the only diety with a secret name.
 
Re: Re: As an exercise,

Dancing David said:


This part of the kabbalah, in some forms Adam and Eve were created at the same time, and God seperated them with an axe, supposedly female genetalia are the mark of the axe strike.

Also in kabbalah there are two craetions because god destroyed the first creation when he extended justice(the forth sphere) without mercy(the fifth sphere) as a result first creationwas destroyed by fire.

Asherah, has roots in the kabbalah as weel, there are stories of Lilith the first wife of god. may of the hebraic tribes were not monthiestic, they worshiped a pantheon of gods, in fact AL is the primium mobile and there are at least two layers before you get to YHVH and AZRH.

Most of the polytheism has been removed, there is a theory that the dead sea scrolls are actualy from saducees(not Essenes) and that they portray a polytheistic hebrew tradition.

Which makes sense the hebrew were a nomadic people in contact with the people of Cana'an and they probably shared many of the same tradiations.

Ba'al means Lord so when you read the word Ba'al there is probably a missing word like Ba'al Auor (Lord of light). YHVH was probably not the only diety with a secret name.

Interesting, I was aware of the meaning of Baal but not aware of all the other mythology you mentioned.

And yes, each cult has secret names for the deities. The personalities of some deities are indistinguishable and its hard to pin point where one starts where one ends.

An unscientific theory I read as to why this is was that the stories of fertility cults may have been intended either as plays or reinactments to illustrate changing of the seasons,
or of extended periods of agricultural prosperity, then an extended drought, then back to prosperity.
The parallels to Greek tragedy and comedy plays are uncanny.
 
The parallels to Greek tragedy and comedy plays are uncanny, although maybe not all that surprising as there are thoughts that Semitic Canaanites, Pheonicians, and other cultures in this crossroads region would very likely have extensive contact with each other. Those Pheonicians had been around the Mediteranian a few times, an possibly the Saudi peninsula.
 
Kullervo said:
Any insights into possible distinctions between YHWH, El Shaddai, and possibly Elohim (a plural?).

How about Rahab, behemoth, and leviathan?

Not to neglect Tehom/Tiamat....

"Shaddai" means "almighty", not a name.

"Elohim" means "the gods". Really. Attaching that label to the one God was a later development.

Behemoth and leviathan are just large animals that kept getting larger with each re-telling.
 
Abdul Alhazred said:


"Shaddai" means "almighty", not a name.

"Elohim" means "the gods". Really. Attaching that label to the one God was a later development.

Behemoth and leviathan are just large animals that kept getting larger with each re-telling.
Yes on Shaddai, of course, but I'm more interested in the "El" part, as in Elohim, and all those other "el" prefixes and suffixes in proper names. (Nathaniel - gift of god and so forth).

And of course, the "sons of god" in Genesis 6:1. Nothing beats textual archaeology....
 

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