Why aren't we born with knowledge of God?

[TheAnachronism]

Part I:

Over the years, I've asked various Christians why God, if he exists, didn't just create us as faithful people; in other words, why aren't we innately Christian?

The usual response is often vague, but basically comes down to the idea that God wants us to have "free will," and by making us believe in Him and His Word, our free will is taken away. God wants us to choose to believe (or choose to burn in the pits of hell for eternity, perhaps).

However, why couldn't God just simply create us with an innate knowledge of the Bible (AKA His Word)? I don't think many Christians would argue that by reading/knowing/understanding the Bible, our free will is taken away. Reading the Bible seems to be important for most Christians, and I've never heard them claim that they have no free will because of it.

If we were given this innate knowledge, just think of how much more cohesive and efficient the Christian faith would be! Since it would be known through knowledge instead of written word, there would be no translation problems, no problems with scribal error, no arguments about the interpretation of passages, no confusion about which passages are most important and which rules need to be more strictly followed.

Part II:

While we're on the subject of "free will," I'll save myself the trouble of making two separate posts. I know that free will has been discussed in R&P ad nauseum, and the discussions usually last at least 5 pages. I think the topic is important, though, because Christians seem to talk about free will a lot.

I often talk to one of my Christian coworkers when I'm at work, and a couple times we have ended up on the topic of free will. The gist of the conversation was that things like being happy and whom we fall in love with or have feelings for is entirely a matter of choice.

I don't disagree that we, as humans, have a large capacity for controlling our own behavior, but I don't feel that it is effective to the same extent that my co-worker does. Thoughts and emotions seem largely a matter of our own physical brains, as do the impulses they inspire. The actions we perform based on those thoughts and emotions usually fall under our control, but to act as if we have complete dominance over every aspect of our brain is ridiculous.

To illustrate:

I love looking at books in foreign language like Russian and Chinese. When I do this, I can look at the words and letters like they are pictures; I can observe the curves and lines of the letters without recognizing that they mean anything. But it's not the same for my native language (English) nor my second language (German). Whenever I see a word in these languages, I recognize it as meaning something. I can't look at the printed words "mistake" or "Aufhebung" and admire its form; my mind almost instantly decodes its meaning. Even if I try to force myself not to recognize the word, I read it and understand it.

The above example is a learned behavior that is experienced as innate. I'm sure there are more examples of the limits of our free will, but I think the above example illustrates that we do not have complete dominance over our own minds.

I know there are many people on this forum that are far smarter than I, so I'm interested in your thoughts on this.

 

[Hux]

We are as Godless at birth as we are ignorant of geography or history. We just have to wait to be taught to be religious. Which is why Christian kids tend to be born in Christian households, Muslim kids to Muslims. If it ever happens the other way around I would be interested.

 

[hamelekim]

Part I:

Over the years, I've asked various Christians why God, if he exists, didn't just create us as faithful people; in other words, why aren't we innately Christian?

The usual response is often vague, but basically comes down to the idea that God wants us to have "free will," and by making us believe in Him and His Word, our free will is taken away. God wants us to choose to believe (or choose to burn in the pits of hell for eternity, perhaps).

However, why couldn't God just simply create us with an innate knowledge of the Bible (AKA His Word)? I don't think many Christians would argue that by reading/knowing/understanding the Bible, our free will is taken away. Reading the Bible seems to be important for most Christians, and I've never heard them claim that they have no free will because of it.

If we were given this innate knowledge, just think of how much more cohesive and efficient the Christian faith would be! Since it would be known through knowledge instead of written word, there would be no translation problems, no problems with scribal error, no arguments about the interpretation of passages, no confusion about which passages are most important and which rules need to be more strictly followed.

Part II:

While we're on the subject of "free will," I'll save myself the trouble of making two separate posts. I know that free will has been discussed in R&P ad nauseum, and the discussions usually last at least 5 pages. I think the topic is important, though, because Christians seem to talk about free will a lot.

I often talk to one of my Christian coworkers when I'm at work, and a couple times we have ended up on the topic of free will. The gist of the conversation was that things like being happy and whom we fall in love with or have feelings for is entirely a matter of choice.

I don't disagree that we, as humans, have a large capacity for controlling our own behavior, but I don't feel that it is effective to the same extent that my co-worker does. Thoughts and emotions seem largely a matter of our own physical brains, as do the impulses they inspire. The actions we perform based on those thoughts and emotions usually fall under our control, but to act as if we have complete dominance over every aspect of our brain is ridiculous.

To illustrate:

I love looking at books in foreign language like Russian and Chinese. When I do this, I can look at the words and letters like they are pictures; I can observe the curves and lines of the letters without recognizing that they mean anything. But it's not the same for my native language (English) nor my second language (German). Whenever I see a word in these languages, I recognize it as meaning something. I can't look at the printed words "mistake" or "Aufhebung" and admire its form; my mind almost instantly decodes its meaning. Even if I try to force myself not to recognize the word, I read it and understand it.

The above example is a learned behavior that is experienced as innate. I'm sure there are more examples of the limits of our free will, but I think the above example illustrates that we do not have complete dominance over our own minds.

I know there are many people on this forum that are far smarter than I, so I'm interested in your thoughts on this.

We have knowledge of God at birth. Knowledge of Christ is something that God choose not to give to people until they hear it from others. We know what is good and bad in our hearts, and by obeying his will in part or whole, without acknowledging God shows he is the author of morality.

 

[bluesjnr]

If it ever happens the other way around I would be interested.

About the closest I could get to that is discussed at length here.

Note how some of these people have asked for anonymity for fear of their and their families safety. Read their usage policy and please abide by it. This link is Muslim to Christian.

This link will take you to those who preferred the other direction and lets you read such classics as;

"How the gift of a Quran transformed the life of a white, racist, anti-Muslim working-class Chicago youth"

And​

"The amazing story of a violent, drunken, racist, cross-burning Klu Klux Klan member transformed into the "servant of peace""

If you wrote it as fiction you'd be laughed out the editors office!

 

[Marduk]

About the closest I could get to that is discussed at length here.

Note how some of these people have asked for anonymity for fear of their and their families safety. Read their usage policy and please abide by it. This link is Muslim to Christian.

This link will take you to those who preferred the other direction and let's you read such classics as;

"How the gift of a Quran transformed the life of a white, racist, anti-Muslim working-class Chicago youth"

Beats me!

I had a brief scan through, but can't seem to find how the gift of the Quran transformed the life of John Walker Lindh anywhere
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Walker_Lindh

 

[Ethnikos]

Over the years, I've asked various Christians why God, if he exists, didn't just create us as faithful people; in other words, why aren't we innately Christian?

"various"? How many is that? I think if you were to ask like 100,000 people, you might get some greater variation in your answers. I think some people would look at you kind of funny and wonder what happened to you.
"You mean that you did not know all about God and Jesus, when you were born?"
I think everyone did, but God, for some reason, makes people forget.
As for the second part, you can choose which pair of pants you want to wear today. Other than that sort of thing, there is not that much choice. People can have a lot of determination, and work their way into attaining goals, but I doubt that many people ever reach total satisfaction with their life.
I don't think we (meaning myself, mainly), were born (for the sole purpose) to exercise "free will".
"Now while Jesus was in Jerusalem at the feast of the Passover, many people believed in his name because they saw the miraculous signs he was doing. But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people. He did not need anyone to testify about man, for he knew what was in man."
Here were a bunch of people witnessing Jesus and believing in him. Did he care? No, because they only believed what they wanted to believe, so Jesus left and went to another part of the country.
"What, what! But they chose to believe in Jesus, what's the problem?"
Obviously, free will don't mean nothing. What did they really choose? Nothing. God put Jesus in front of their eyes and they could not deny the truth, that does not mean they understood the spiritual truth of Jesus, and Jesus did not recognise in them the ones that his Father had given him.

 

[IgnorantGenius]

We have knowledge of God at birth

How so?

Knowledge of Christ is something that God choose not to give to people until they hear it from others.

Why?

We know what is good and bad in our hearts

Good and bad are words that don't accurately describe reality.

by obeying his will in part or whole, without acknowledging God shows he is the author of morality.

How so?

 

[Tumblehome]

I often talk to one of my Christian coworkers when I'm at work, and a couple times we have ended up on the topic of free will. The gist of the conversation was that things like being happy and whom we fall in love with or have feelings for is entirely a matter of choice.

But it doesn't always work out that the person we fall in love with will fall in love with us. We don't seem to have any free will in that.

I like to go canoeing up north or hiking in the mountains. I didn't sit down, weigh the pros and cons and choose to like it. I just responded positively when I was exposed to it, like we do with a painting or a woman's face. Free will had nothing to do with it. My freedom comes in the ability to pursue what I'm inclined to do, and that's more to do with the culture I live in. It allows me to have a canoe and a vehicle and roads that will easily get me to my destination.

In the end, I don't seem to have the free will to not like hiking and canoeing, but it doesn't matter because it's a choice I wouldn't make anyway, if I had it.

 

[Tumblehome]

We have knowledge of God at birth. Knowledge of Christ is something that God choose not to give to people until they hear it from others. We know what is good and bad in our hearts, and by obeying his will in part or whole, without acknowledging God shows he is the author of morality.

That's quite a pile of unfounded assertions that bears no resemblance to my experience at all.

 

[paximperium]

That's quite a pile of unfounded assertions that bears no resemblance to my experience at all.

Unfounded assertions are Ham's Modus Operandi.

 

[hamelekim]

How so?

We have a sense of right and wrong, fair and unfair. Much of that comes from God, although our human nature override it much of the time.

Why?

Because God wants it that way. He doesn't explain and doesn't need to. He isn't answerable to us, we are answerable to him.

Good and bad are words that don't accurately describe reality.

If that were the case then you would have no moral position to punish others for doing things you disagree with.

How so?

The Bible is clear that if you follow God's laws, without acknowledging God, you are accepting that God's laws are right, which condemns you.

 

[hamelekim]

That's quite a pile of unfounded assertions that bears no resemblance to my experience at all.

Not unfounded at all. They are clearly laid out in the Bible, and it's clear when you study society that it is correct.

 

[paximperium]

Not unfounded at all. They are clearly laid out in the Bible,

Irrelevant garbage.

and it's clear when you study society that it is correct.

Really? Please present evidence and appropriate citations and studies to support your bold assertions. Or are you lying again?

 

[paximperium]

We have a sense of right and wrong, fair and unfair. Much of that comes from God, although our human nature override it much of the time.

Because God wants it that way. He doesn't explain and doesn't need to. He isn't answerable to us, we are answerable to him.

If that were the case then you would have no moral position to punish others for doing things you disagree with.

The Bible is clear that if you follow God's laws, without acknowledging God, you are accepting that God's laws are right, which condemns you.

I left in the parts of his post that are supported by evidence.

 

[Hux]

Of course Hamelekim reckons we are all born with knowledge of the Christian God.

 

[Monster Machine]

We have a sense of right and wrong, fair and unfair. Much of that comes from God, although our human nature override it much of the time.

Actually, it comes from upbringing, and the kinds of morals instilled from your parents and environment.

Because God wants it that way. He doesn't explain and doesn't need to. He isn't answerable to us, we are answerable to him.

Of course he doesn't explain it - he doesn't exist. For the sake of argument, though, which god are you referring to?

If that were the case then you would have no moral position to punish others for doing things you disagree with.

Yes, we do. Society has determined what is wrong and what is right and people have to live within the law or be punished. However, morals are subjective based on what is allowed within the law. It is illegal to kill, but not illegal to cheat on your wife. Both are morally questionable, but only one is illegal. Although, it seems perfectly fine to kill within the context of the bible. It is also morally acceptable to offer your daughters to be raped in the bible as well. What a wonderful set of morals we could learn from the bible.

The Bible is clear that if you follow God's laws, without acknowledging God, you are accepting that God's laws are right, which condemns you.

That is the most ridiculous pile of crap I have ever read.

Monster

 

[Hux]

"That is the most ridiculous pile of crap I have ever read. "

Come come. You've surely read some of his other stuff?

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

We know what is good and bad in our hearts,

Except for the people who don't obviously.

And then there's the people who disagree on what is good and bad.

It's almost as if we are just making most of it up as we go along rather than being born with it, isn't it?

 

[Tumblehome]

Not unfounded at all. They are clearly laid out in the Bible, and it's clear when you study society that it is correct.

If you want to base your unfounded assertions on a book of unfounded assertions, go for it. It won't affect your physical well-being in any way. But you do realize that every other area of your life is guided by reality. You eat when you're hungry, you don't answer the phone unless you hear it ringing, you don't jump off cliffs. Why such descrepency between the way you run your life and your religious beliefs?

And you must have studied a Christian society. What conclusions do you think you'd reach if you studied an African agrarian society or Amazonian hunter/gatherers?

 

[Lanzy]

I was born with equal knowledge of god, the easter bunny, santa claus and the tooth fairy.

They are still equals.