Why are not Yahweh and Kenny like this?

[Mike D.]

The following is a link to an account of how a devout Mormon left Mormonism and became a devout Christian of a more orthodox or fundamentalist variety. The account may be interesting to some here for a variety of reasons, and to me it raises some questions:

1. The author displayed a marked religious sensibility from early childhood, and apparently as a result of the purity of this religious sensibility, joined the Mormon Church when he was in high school, at age 16. Now, Yahweh and Lord Kenneth are both in high school, but why have they not exhibited this same kind of religious sensibility? Is the answer heredity, environment, God not gracing them with such sensibility, or what?

2. Do any JREFers feel that the author exercised critical thinking in questioning and ultimately leaving the Mormon Church? (Does his thinking in this instance make Jeff Corey proud of him?)

3. Does anyone here feel that the author did not excercise critical thinking in becoming a more orthodox Christian? If so, and if you think he exercised it in leaving Mormonism, then why would he not continue to exercise it in examining the form of Christianity he subsequently embraced?

4. Why did the author critically examine Mormonism while his wife did not? Was he genetically predisposed to do so and she wasn't? Or what?

5. I've known a couple of Mormons who have left Mormonism and become agnostics or atheists. Why did they do that, when this author did not? Once again, was it genetics, environment, differences in neural hardwiring, or what?


http://www.utlm.org/testimony/davemctestimony.htm

 

[Zep]

The following is a link to an account of how a devout Mormon left Mormonism and became a devout Christian of a more orthodox or fundamentalist variety. The account may be interesting to some here for a variety of reasons, and to me it raises some questions:

First, it is well worth noting that this story occured some 20 years ago, and a LOT of water may have flowed under the bridge for this guy since then. But anyway...

1. The author displayed a marked religious sensibility from early childhood, and apparently as a result of the purity of this religious sensibility, joined the Mormon Church when he was in high school, at age 16. Now, Yahweh and Lord Kenneth are both in high school, but why have they not exhibited this same kind of religious sensibility? Is the answer heredity, environment, God not gracing them with such sensibility, or what?

A closer reading of this article seems to suggest early indoctrination is the reason. The guy was into "religion" before he was into Mormonism. Children and teens are usually the most highly susceptible to influence.

2. Do any JREFers feel that the author exercised critical thinking in questioning and ultimately leaving the Mormon Church? (Does his thinking in this instance make Jeff Corey proud of him?)

I think he did but only to a certain extent. Unfortunately, it is quite clear that the blinders were still firmly on with regard to religion in general. One can only wonder what would happen if he applied the same level of "critical thinking" to his new/current religious beliefs.

3. Does anyone here feel that the author did not excercise critical thinking in becoming a more orthodox Christian? If so, and if you think he exercised it in leaving Mormonism, then why would he not continue to exercise it in examining the form of Christianity he subsequently embraced?

Comfort zones, probably. He was already way out of his comfort zone in confronting and dealing with Mormonism. To then critically examine Christianity in the same historical way would have knocked too many more props out from under him to leave him anything to hold onto. Just too scary?

4. Why did the author critically examine Mormonism while his wife did not? Was he genetically predisposed to do so and she wasn't? Or what?

Actually, the story says that she did examine Mormonism, but then it seems obvious that her comfort zones were a lot harder to leave than this guys were. I suspect she also was greatly influenced by "family".

5. I've known a couple of Mormons who have left Mormonism and become agnostics or atheists. Why did they do that, when this author did not? Once again, was it genetics, environment, differences in neural hardwiring, or what?

In this case, the guy was leaving a clearly bankrupt theology for one that offered a more solid foundation, for him at least in his view. That WE believe that this new foundation is equally contentious historically as Mormonism doesn't have a bearing on this story. Your examples of Mormons going directly to atheism would suggest they had either seen right through to the core of the problematic historical issues of Christian-based religions in general, or that they reacted to their discovery of the fallibility of Mormonism with an utter rejection of it or anything like it.


http://www.utlm.org/testimony/davemctestimony.htm

 

[Some Friggin Guy]

I would like to add only that society seems to have a problem with people not being a part of a religion of some kind. At least that has been my experience.

For example, while it doesn't happen very often, I have been asked what religion I practice. The question has never been putt to me "Do you practice a religion?' Always Which one I practice.

That may lead a lot to the loss of comfort zones for this person.

 

[BillyJoe]

And, of course, you have to remember that historically athesim was never regarded as a religion. In fact the term actually meant a lack of belief so that pretty well excluded atheists from any sort of comfort zone. Now, with the advent of the Bright movement, however, all that has changed. Atheists can now also cuddle together and feel all warm and fuzzy inside like all the other religions.

 

[Mike D.]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses. Zep, I found your thoughts very interesting, especially the idea of "comfort zones" that you discussed, and that was discussed by the others as well. This seems like a likely explanation why he couldn't seem to bring critical thinking beyond questioning Mormonism to qestioning Christianity itself.

Zep, you seem to feel that it is likely that his early religious indoctrination led to the development of the religious sensibility that casued him to be ripe for conversion to Mormonism at age 16. I mentioned Yahweh and Lord Kenneth in this thread because they actually came to mind as I was reading about this guy's religious experience in high school, and was struck by the contrast between his intense gravitation toward religion and the lack thereof on the part of Yahweh and LK. Do you feel that if Yahweh's and LK's parents had been religious and sent them to church at a young age that they might have been as fervently inclined toward religion as this guy was in high school, or do you think religious indoctrination or lack thereof is not always the whole story in cases like this.

Mike

 

[c4ts]

I went to Catholic school for kindergarten though first grade. They kicked me out because I kept getting into arguments with teachers and the priest about things like the resurrection and transubstantiation (I called it "mixing up wafers with skin" because they wouldn't let kids drink the wine). That and I drove teachers nuts trying to keep me challenged. Ever since then, I have gravitated toward an intense dislike of nuns.

 

[espritch]

That was an interesting link. I could sympathize with his early struggles with Christianity. They reminded me of my own. What I found curious was that he was willing to examine the evidence in relationship to the book of Mormon but when he decided to go back to Christianity, he decided to put aside science and concentrate purely on the bible.

Essentially, when faced with his crisis of faith, he chose to retreat entirely from reason and accept the circular logic of belief. My bible says X. My bible is true. Therefore X is true. In the end, it was easier for him to avoid applying the same scrutiny of evidence he applied to Mormanism to Christianity than to risk ending up with no faith at all.

I suspect is has a lot to do with personality. I think that some people are prone to religiosity by nature. Others are natural skeptics. The natural skeptic, raised in a religion probably finds it a lot easier to abandon religion entirely since it is easier to abandon religion than his skeptical nature. For the naturally religious person, abandoning religion is abandoning his nature. He can loose one faith only by replacing it with another. Of course this is hypothesis is based purely on person observation rather than any rigorous statistical examination of human nature so my skeptical nature requires I acknowledge that it could be complete hogs wallow.

 

[Andonyx]

And, of course, you have to remember that historically athesim was never regarded as a religion. In fact the term actually meant a lack of belief so that pretty well excluded atheists from any sort of comfort zone. Now, with the advent of the Bright movement, however, all that has changed. Atheists can now also cuddle together and feel all warm and fuzzy inside like all the other religions.

I'm not sure of your tone on this post, but personally speaking that's one of the reasons I am uncomfortable with the term....or any blanket term for that matter.

I don't like to associate myself with a common belief, or even disbelief. If I have to be associated with a group I would rather it be a distinct group of individuals I respect...such as my idiot friends.

Anyway, that's off-topic...good thread, Mike, this is interesting.

 

[BillyJoe]

Andonyx,

I'm not sure of your tone on this post.....

Yes, you picked me. I liked the style of Zep's post so much I thought I'd have a go at parodying it. But I did mean what I said and I'm happy you agree.

BillyJoe

 

[Zep]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses. Zep, I found your thoughts very interesting, especially the idea of "comfort zones" that you discussed, and that was discussed by the others as well. This seems like a likely explanation why he couldn't seem to bring critical thinking beyond questioning Mormonism to qestioning Christianity itself.

For example: From an early age we come to believe that Mum and Dad love us, certain foods taste good, etc, etc. This is inculcated unto us, it is one of the "givens" of our lives. So to suddenly have these thrown into serious doubt by discovering that Mum and Dad never loved you at all (or some such) can be such a shock that it can often be beyond acceptable - we would prefer to shoot the messenger, or to just plain disbelieve the evidence, than to accept the removal of this "underpinning" of our belief systems.

And so it is for this guy - his "Christian" beliefs are so much a part of him that it is likely that he would as soon cut off his hand with a blunt knife as change his mind.

In such a scenario, his retreat from Mormonism was akin to discovering that his parents weren't married when he was born - disturbing, certainly, but able to be reconciled with reality AND beliefs.

Zep, you seem to feel that it is likely that his early religious indoctrination led to the development of the religious sensibility that caused him to be ripe for conversion to Mormonism at age 16. I mentioned Yahweh and Lord Kenneth in this thread because they actually came to mind as I was reading about this guy's religious experience in high school, and was struck by the contrast between his intense gravitation toward religion and the lack thereof on the part of Yahweh and LK. Do you feel that if Yahweh's and LK's parents had been religious and sent them to church at a young age that they might have been as fervently inclined toward religion as this guy was in high school, or do you think religious indoctrination or lack thereof is not always the whole story in cases like this.

Mike

This would be difficult for me to comment on because my own experience is growing up in a country where the extreme religiosity such as is exhibited in this example and elsewhere in the USA almost does not exist. Even "regular Christian church attendees" here have an extended tolerance towards, or at least an understanding of other religions, including non-Christian. In US terms, they could be said to be "Sunday Christians".

Generally, Australians are both cynical and non-religious, and VERY skeptical of most things (i.e. participating in this forum requires no mental leaps on my part, and you can see the same attitude from Mr Manifesto, BillyJoe, The Fool and AUP, and others). To be honest, such things as the extreme religiosity this guy exhibits, and such exhibitions as TV evangelism, are lightly tolerated and usually considered to be food for comic relief, not really serious subjects at all. In other words, I personally find this particular guy amusingly naive and fairly silly.

So, with regard to Yahweh and Ken, to me they sound like your "normal" bright (one WAY brighter than the other) rebellious teenage boys, hell bent on a good time and baiting adults. So it has been for eons... Would they be "religious" if their parents had enforced it? I suspect not - many parents of teenagers are religious and yet the kids are not so. My own observation is that it is usually the dimmer bulbs without enquiring minds that get swept up into the more extreme indoctrinations, not just religious but also political. The most notable example is, as observed by many people here, the current occupant of the Oval Room...

 

[Zep]

I went to Catholic school for kindergarten though first grade. They kicked me out because I kept getting into arguments with teachers and the priest about things like the resurrection and transubstantiation (I called it "mixing up wafers with skin" because they wouldn't let kids drink the wine). That and I drove teachers nuts trying to keep me challenged. Ever since then, I have gravitated toward an intense dislike of nuns.

You asked questions. Oh dear, that was a "Grade 1 Mortal Sin". Lucky you weren't thrashed within an inch of your life by a slipper-wielding nun!

 

[Yahweh]

Quick summary of my life involving religion:

3/4 Score years ago, I was born. I was borning into a religious household, Christianity specifically. The particular flavor of Christianity was that of Southern Baptism. Yep, good ol' Biblical Literalism that is really quite an American Phenomena, not too hard to come across when you come from deep within the Bible Belt.

I was Baptised at the age of 2. Seeing as how I had a fear of strangers (and related fear of strangers drowning me in pools of water), the Baptism was someone less than what the Baby Jesus would consider a blessing.

Momma Yahweh used to read the Bible to me and the Sister Yahwehs. I can say that I was too young to understand any of it.

Momma Yahweh used to take the family to Church. I used to take an envelope out of a box on the chair in front of me (the envelopes were for putting money in when the collection plate came around), then I'd take a pencil, then I'd draw for the duration of Church. My pictures mainly consisted of a house, clouds in the sky, and oversized raindrops falling all around. I didnt really think much of it, but I'm pretty sure Momma Yahweh thought I was drawing scenes of God crying.

I can say that I've never once believed in God (or Santa, Easter Bunnies, Gnomes, Smurfs, Tooth Fairies, or anything of the sort).

However, Sister Yahweh used to be mildly religious, she is an Evil Atheist today. Other Sister Yahweh is intensely religious, though you'd never be able to tell by her overly unchristian behavior. Other Other Sister Yahweh is a member of a Christian Youth Group. Momma Yahweh is Religious, Daddy Yahweh doesnt appear to have any religious connections. Nephew Yahweh is probably going to grow up religious (Other Other Sister Yahweh has already started the brainwashing cycle with a Beginners Bible and everything). The Cat we had wasnt religious either.

The cynical truth is this: The Religious Belief in the members of my family is inversely proportional to their intelligence. Myself, I'm fortunate enough to be fairly bright guy (or at least I perform well on IQ tests), Sister Yahweh is also a bright person, Other Sister Yahweh not quite the sharpest knife in the drawer, Other Other Sister Yahweh is a bit more well educated than Other Sister Yahweh, Momma Yahweh never graduated Highschool as far as I'm aware, and Daddy Yahweh possess BAs in micro-computer science (micro-computers are your standard Personal Computer... the terminology is a little mislesading), The Cat was probably the most intelligent Cat I ever seen.

I wouldnt say intelligence makes Atheists, but I would say its an unusual connection between myself, my family, and the people around me.

Possibly its because I've never believed in God in my entire life... then again, Sister Yahweh used to be fairly religious, up until she got edumacated.

Momma Yahweh was quite strict (or at least in my eyes) in enforcing religion. I dont think I took much after Daddy Yahweh because he was always working or had gone TDY for months at a time.

 

[Mike D.]

It seems so far that at least three reasons have been proposed to account for the strong religiosity of certain children/teenagers:

1. They were religiously indoctrinated as children.

2. They are usually less intelligent than those inclined toward skepticism/agnosticism/atheism.

3. They are religious by nature (apparently born that way). One might say, then, that Yahweh and Ken were born to be skeptics. (Does "nature" here refer to heredity and genes or is there more to it than that?)

 

[Kopji]

I've known a couple of Mormons who have left Mormonism and become agnostics or atheists. Why did they do that, when this author did not? Once again, was it genetics, environment, differences in neural hardwiring, or what?

Ok I’ll bite. I’m one of “those”, but I was raised RLDS, not LDS. Different kind of mormon but I think that properly qualifies me. How may I help you?

Sheesh, ‘loss of faith’ is such a complex thing, especially when it happens later in life. Genetics: I think “yes- partly”. I was the latest in a long family line of spiritual healers and ministers. I think ‘mentally ill’ is a poor term for me though. Extreme religiosity probably involves a form of schizophrenia, itself a description of some poorly understood cognitive differences/problems. There is a good paper now posted online over at Infidels:
Shattered Faith Syndrome I giggle at this conclusion:

Psychological issues of former members of restrictive religious are unique in the degree to which they involve past religious belief and experience. It is important to remember that what may seem to be eccentric ideas and practices are likely to have been very important in shaping the former believer's life. In addition to the usual goals of psychotherapy, the former member may need assistance in exploring lingering religious conflicts, as well as support in seeking sources of meaning and guidance more congruent with current beliefs and lifestyle.

Kopji Translation – “I can check out anytime I like but am likely to always be a bit screwed up.”
(Having a sense of humor about life helps a lot).

4. Why did the author critically examine Mormonism while his wife did not? Was he genetically predisposed to do so and she wasn't? Or what?

The ‘critical thinking’ only occurred within an already established framework. His testimony is very long, precisely written, and detailed. They probably saw him a-coming a long way off… I’ve seen at least a couple theories that say we have a set of core values we develop and hold. The outside may change a lot, but the inside more slowly if at all. Despite his words, he’s not in a much different place than he started.

Unfortunately the story probably contains an underlying personal tragedy for the wife. A broken marriage, parted friendships, and lost dreams could all easily be part of the package. Mormons consider it a sign of ‘lack of faith’ to EVEN DATE non Mormons. We are each surrounded by little support structures that often go unnoticed until they are tested. If I intensely dislike a single thing about religion, it is its ability to create human wreckage without remorse or even awareness.

Maybe Marie Osmond was most sane when she just got in her car and drove…

2. Do any JREFers feel that the author exercised critical thinking in questioning and ultimately leaving the Mormon Church? (Does his thinking in this instance make Jeff Corey proud of him?)

Not enough to break out of the paradigm of belief. Life is just not all about critical thinking. Perhaps choice of religion is more intuitive: like choosing a favorite painting because ‘you like it’ than the result of a process of critical review.

I paint and sketch as a hobby (or am I an artist who does something else for a living?) Creative expression involves seeing a subject differently. Art is a rendering of more than just what we take in with our eyes, not always literal. I am quite ok with understanding someone’s ‘spirituality’ as being similar to this artistic sense of perception. This at least, keeps me from a dull hatred of all things religious.

Interesting topic. I have a fairly short attention span on religious stuff these days but would be happy to offer whatever perspective might be helpful as a post-mormon.

 

[c4ts]

You asked questions. Oh dear, that was a "Grade 1 Mortal Sin". Lucky you weren't thrashed within an inch of your life by a slipper-wielding nun!

It was a paddle, not a slipper, and she told me I wasn't allowed to die because Jesus didn't when he was nailed to the cross.

 

[Mike D.]

Unfortunately the story probably contains an underlying personal tragedy for the wife. A broken marriage, parted friendships, and lost dreams could all easily be part of the package. Mormons consider it a sign of ‘lack of faith’ to EVEN DATE non Mormons. We are each surrounded by little support structures that often go unnoticed until they are tested. If I intensely dislike a single thing about religion, it is its ability to create human wreckage without remorse or even awareness.

Kopji,

Yes, it's interesting that his leaving Mormonism resulted in the break-up of his marriage, which may well have been a happy marriage before this happened. He seems to have felt in the end that having a right relationship to God and leaving a "false" religion was more important to him than appeasing his wife and keeping his marriage and family intact. And his wife seems to have concluded in the end that being married to a faithful Mormon and the eternal advantages this would bring her and her children were more important than her marriage and keeping the family together. I imagine that both agonized over the effect the divorce would have on the children, but in the end, each felt that the commitment to "Truth" was more important.

I've heard of a Mormon husband or wife losing faith in Mormonism, but for the sake of keeping their family together, or maybe feeling comfortable with the outward trappings of Mormon culture, etc., have stayed on as nominal members of the Church but inwardly are non-believers. So in those cases, they sacrifice some of their committment to "Truth," in order to preserve the concrete realities of marriage, family, a satisfying place in the culture, etc.

I guess these are two different ways of dealing with the problem.

Mike

 

[Zep]

It was a paddle, not a slipper, and she told me I wasn't allowed to die because Jesus didn't when he was nailed to the cross.

I'd laugh, if it were not for the fact that this is such a common theme from nun-run schools. It just beggars belief sometimes...

What do they do to the girls in "Nun's School", I wonder? From the results, it sounds like it is an SS training and indoctrination camp...

 

[Zep]

Kopji,

Yes, it's interesting that his leaving Mormonism resulted in the break-up of his marriage, which may well have been a happy marriage before this happened. He seems to have felt in the end that having a right relationship to God and leaving a "false" religion was more important to him than appeasing his wife and keeping his marriage and family intact. And his wife seems to have concluded in the end that being married to a faithful Mormon and the eternal advantages this would bring her and her children were more important than her marriage and keeping the family together. I imagine that both agonized over the effect the divorce would have on the children, but in the end, each felt that the commitment to "Truth" was more important.

I've heard of a Mormon husband or wife losing faith in Mormonism, but for the sake of keeping their family together, or maybe feeling comfortable with the outward trappings of Mormon culture, etc., have stayed on as nominal members of the Church but inwardly are non-believers. So in those cases, they sacrifice some of their committment to "Truth," in order to preserve the concrete realities of marriage, family, a satisfying place in the culture, etc.

I guess these are two different ways of dealing with the problem.

Mike

Interesting that both these approaches are really mental straightjackets that do not really exist. It is accepting that you can have only one or the other - "Truth", or a happy marriage and family - that they are mutually incompatible. And people go through such unnecessary agonies trying to make such a decision.

 

[Zep]

It seems so far that at least three reasons have been proposed to account for the strong religiosity of certain children/teenagers:

1. They were religiously indoctrinated as children.

2. They are usually less intelligent than those inclined toward skepticism/agnosticism/atheism.

3. They are religious by nature (apparently born that way). One might say, then, that Yahweh and Ken were born to be skeptics. (Does "nature" here refer to heredity and genes or is there more to it than that?)

For the second point, perhaps I would change "intelligence" to "level of education". My ealier reference to "dimmer bulbs" was perhaps aimed more at the uneducated generally than at the low-IQ's of the world. Yahweh's example shows that education leads to exploration and questioning, which may more easily lead to re-evaluation of personal religious understandings.

 

[Kopji]

Mike D
Thanks. Our family's own journey has been pretty weird unusual.

My wife was diagnosed with a heart problem in the mid 90's and given only a few months to live. I was very religious at the time, but she was not. Very long story short - she is still alive but attributes it to some kind of supernatural support. She got a PHd from some psychic metaphysical university in California (where else?). I on the other hand have gradually left my religious life behind (it takes many years). My bookshelves have gradually become filled with science, art, and philosophy books.
Talk about the odd couple...

Maybe in a way we have found opposite ways to deal with a personal crisis. Not sure how this will turn all out in the end, we've been through a lot together so far.

The complexity of life is in the living of it, goes beyond short testimonies we might try to explain it with.