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Where We Get Our Morals From

Paranormal Inquirer

Critical Thinker
Joined
Mar 8, 2008
Messages
282
I was debating a theist who was very progressive and didn't believe in creationism or intelligent design. Needless to say, he's not your typical, everyday Muslim. Anyways, the one question that he asked me that really stumped me was this:

Do you believe in absolute truth, the concept that there is a standard of right and wrong? If yes, where did this standard come from? If no, morals are relative. If the latter is the case: should criminals be prosecuted?

Now my natural response to this was, yes, there is an absolute truth and it comes from our innate morals. Perhaps there is an evolutionary explanation of this phenomenon. But the problem is that he then asked, how do you explain psychopaths and mass murderers who truly believe what they are doing is morally justified? I couldn't respond. I'm looking forward to meeting up with this guy again so I'd like some help here.
 
I was debating a theist who was very progressive and didn't believe in creationism or intelligent design. Needless to say, he's not your typical, everyday Muslim. Anyways, the one question that he asked me that really stumped me was this:

Do you believe in absolute truth, the concept that there is a standard of right and wrong? If yes, where did this standard come from? If no, morals are relative. If the latter is the case: should criminals be prosecuted?

Now my natural response to this was, yes, there is an absolute truth and it comes from our innate morals. Perhaps there is an evolutionary explanation of this phenomenon. But the problem is that he then asked, how do you explain psychopaths and mass murderers who truly believe what they are doing is morally justified? I couldn't respond. I'm looking forward to meeting up with this guy again so I'd like some help here.

I've observed that most people, in practice, believe in a standard of good and evil. One of the pastimes on this forum is finding a rational basis for this in a world governed entirely by scientific thinking.

The difficulty is that from a scientific point of view, it doesn't objectively matter which configuration of matter and energy the universe falls into. So it's a matter of choosing axioms.
 
Do you believe in absolute truth,
No, because:
  1. I don't know what the term absolute truth implies
  2. I try to avoid having any beliefs, simply because they are the fuzzy wuzzy stuff that fills in the gaps in comprehension
the concept that there is a standard of right and wrong?
Yes
If yes, where did this standard come from?
'We' made it up. Note: the term 'we' has a habit of stretching or shrinking, depending on the topic

If no, morals are relative.

:confused:

If yes, morals are relative too...

The terms 'moral' and 'ethical' are, essentially, synonyms for 'normal'

If the latter is the case: should criminals be prosecuted?
Ermmm... yeah...
:confused:
Criminals are those that do stuff that 'we' dislike so much that 'we' pay some to write rules about and others to enforce
 
Do you believe in absolute truth, the concept that there is a standard of right and wrong?
IMO morality is what the society you live in will tolerate AT THIS POINT IN TIME. Just about any universal code of conduct can be shown to have been acceptable somewhere at sometime. For example: slavery. A couple centuries ago it was considered acceptable here in the United States, now it is not. While slavery is very widely accepted as being wrong it certainly can't be a "universal moral truth" since it has been acceptable. I submit that there is no such thing as a "universal moral truth".

If no, morals are relative. If the latter is the case: should criminals be prosecuted?
I would say yes, since by (my) definition it's something society will not tolerate.

LLH
 
As always a need by some for "philosophy". Essentially just a way of averaging out how much anyone can get away with before others will stomp his/her butt.
The big technical problem is non-theists would not have anything theist put in as important, but (a large number of) theists think it is (ie: no way should blasphemy, apostacy, etc. be crimes anywhere - but many religious want them to be such). As a non-theist, I do not care/am not against religion if religionists keep their silliness to themselves and they make no effort to force me to live with it (i.e.: they do not try to make laws that make everyone do things/not do things based on their particular religion and/or the morals they derive from that religion)..
 
If "morals" are "absolute", then why was owning slaves OK in the past, and unacceptable today? Why are we more "moral" now than pretty much any society in the past? Is it because we stick closer to ancient ideas of "morality" or because we have changed our view of "morality" over time?
 
Morals are clearly relative; how could anyone in, say, ancient Rome, where slavery was de rigeur, be expected to discern that "objectively immoral" institution as such?

The world would be a much better place if bible-thumpers recognized that the Bible doesn't even CLAIM to be a source of morality. I mentioned this in a thread elsewhere recently - even in the absence of (ETA: that is, prior to) a given law, the God of the Bible clearly expected people to behave decently toward one another: Noah, the Egyptians, the Sodomites, etc. How were they supposed to determine right vs. wrong if not by the standards of the times?
 
If this person believes that morality derives from god - that is, murder is wrong because god says it is - then how is that an objective moral standard at all? If murder is wrong because god says it is wrong then it follows that god could just as easily say that murder is perfectly fine tomorrow, and then it wouldn't be wrong any more.

The only way out of that is to claim that god would and could never change his mind. But if you do that then god is not longer setting the standard, he's following it, and you are back to asking where that standard came from. And incidentally you've destroyed the idea of god's omnipotence since you've limited his actions to those that are good.

I fail to see how laws made up arbitrarily by men are relative, whilst laws made up arbitrarily by god are not.
 
Do you believe in absolute truth, the concept that there is a standard of right and wrong?
These are two separate questions. I feel that there really is an objective universe out there, and that our observations of that universe have meaning. Therefore, I believe that an "absolute truth" about a particular thing actually exists, but we may not know it yet. Whether there is an objective standard of right and wrong is a completely different matter. No, I don't. I think society determines what is right and what is wrong. For more information on this particular subject, you can read my article on Moral Relativism.

If yes, where did this standard come from?
From society.

If no, morals are relative.
Of course morals are relative.

If the latter is the case: should criminals be prosecuted?
Of course they should. We are all responsible for the actions we take. If they are not in accordance with the wishes of society in general, we should take steps to ensure that people do not continue to offend against the wishes of society. By rehabilitation if possible, by incarceration if not. I'm not in favour of the death penalty.

Now my natural response to this was, yes, there is an absolute truth and it comes from our innate morals. Perhaps there is an evolutionary explanation of this phenomenon.
There is an evolutionary explanation for why we tend to prefer to get along in the social group, yes.

But the problem is that he then asked, how do you explain psychopaths and mass murderers who truly believe what they are doing is morally justified?
They have different ideas about how the social group should be organised. You get psychopaths and murderers among the more intelligent social animals such as chimpanzees and dolphins. Why should it be such a surprise to find them amongst humans?

I couldn't respond. I'm looking forward to meeting up with this guy again so I'd like some help here.
Check out my article, linked above. Remember: this is my opinion only. YMMV.
 
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I think that you guys may be missing the important implication when you say that morals are relative. If morals are relative to a society, then who am I to say that pedophilia is wrong and we should prosecute all those who commit it? What if it is acceptable in his culture? How can I prove that my viewpoint is the valid one?
 
I think that you guys may be missing the important implication when you say that morals are relative. If morals are relative to a society, then who am I to say that pedophilia is wrong and we should prosecute all those who commit it? What if it is acceptable in his culture? How can I prove that my viewpoint is the valid one?

Sorry John, I'm just using your post as a springboard to vent, since some of this is not relevant to what you asked.

The way out is to say that morals are relative not to societies but to rational beings -- us. Take the issue of slavery. We can apply rationality to the issue and see that slavery under a utilitarian or deontological position (the two biggies that we use to discuss rationally this matter) is immoral. Those slave holding societies in the past were simply wrong. Is this judging their society by modern standards? Yep, probably. But it may also be that, with the economic necessities removed, we may more clearly see the immorality of the practice and not be blinded by our rationalizations.

Morality makes no sense except to rational beings. Sure, there are forms of proto-morality in other animals that allow particular forms of action -- allow them to coexist in groups -- but this is nowhere near the full expression of morality in which humans engage and which depends critically on the existence of language.

We must always recall that morality is not what people do -- not the actions in which different societies engage -- but what people should do. Examination of a society's actions is anthropology, not morality. Attempts at justification are what constitute morality.

We may all agree that moral thinking has been perverted in the past and that we are capable of moral progress. We may disagree. I don't think, as many have already stated, that to point to the existence of slavery in the past (and justifications for slavery in the past) constitutes great evidence for moral relativism between societies. Why does it not simply demonstrate that what we actually do is subject to our whims and desires (and rationalizations) and that we are not particularly moral creatures? Why does it not simply reveal that we need to be more careful in deciding what is and what is not ethical?

As to the OP, it cannot be the case that morality proper arises in some set of divine rules. Those rules might possibly exist, but they would not constitute morality, or a moral sense. We feel what is moral within us and we decide if rules are ethical or not based on those feelings. Morality proper, then, must derive from the type of creatures that we are and the ways that we think and feel. So, yes, it has an evolutionary origin; it is the means by which we are able to form together into large groups. We needn't sink into pure emotivism, however, or "morality is what we feel must be right" because that is only the origin. Our internal sense that we should not kill innocents is not morality. It is a feeling. The rational expression of this feeling into a larger moral imperative, expressed through language (which necessarily implies that is not an individual, but a group concern) is what constitutes morality. It is a construction, and it is relative. But it is not relative to the individual's wants or to the larger society's wants. It is relative to human interaction, human construction, rational thinking.

Or, the easy answer would be to tell him to read the Euthyphro, Meno, and Protagoras of Plato.

The other option is to conclude that morality is a sham, and it's all just emotivism and rationalization.
 
It's a cold fact that 'right' and 'wrong' are merely social constructs.

A murderer must be imprisoned because they are causing damage to society and is destroying lives that have untold potential.

Simply because no God ingrained this 'wrong' it doesn't have to demean the phrase.

If we deem we simply feel that slavery and murder is wrong and there is no written explanation, then we are simply not looking hard enough.
 
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I too apologise for taking this as another opportunity to post this snippit from my dialogs with Zen Master Im Do-Son collection.

Just down the hill from Im Do-son’s small Mill Valley Zen Center was a Baptist church. Its pastor often visited the master with obvious intentions to convert him.

One afternoon as they were taking tea together, Pastor Norton asked, “If there are no ethical absolutes, as you Buddhists teach, what is there to prevent me from pouring this pot of boiling water on your head?”

“The question is,” Master Im replied, “If there are ethical absolutes, as you Christians teach, what is there to prevent you from strapping me to a rack and applying the thumb screws for the sake of my salvation?” You tell me, Pastor Norton, why you aren’t going to scald my shaved head.”

“It would be a sin,” the pastor answered.

“So, “the fear of the Lord” stays your hand?”

“Yes, without the moral authority of God there would be nothing to restrain human wickedness.”

“Indeed,” replied the master, “The Law was given for criminal minds such as yours. I am grateful that you are under its jurisdiction.”

“Actually,” Pastor Norton qualified, “We Christians aren’t under the Law but under grace.”

“And so am I,” stated Master Im. “Grace is the reason why I, myself, am not about to scald you. Don’t misunderstand me. The grace I speak of isn’t a law, principle, or virtue. It’s simply that I care enough about you that I’d rather not harm you.”

“That may spare me for the moment,” Norton replied, “and maybe it works for you today, but in the long run a conscience informed by principle must be your guide.”

“Then I am an object of your good conscience?”

“Yes.”

“Well, good Christian, you have already scalded my head.”
 
If "morals" are "absolute", then why was owning slaves OK in the past, and unacceptable today? Why are we more "moral" now than pretty much any society in the past? Is it because we stick closer to ancient ideas of "morality" or because we have changed our view of "morality" over time?

OK by whom? There are distinctions between legal and illegal, right and wrong, practiced and non-practiced.

For example: Slavery is still practiced in all countries. Some countries still practice it more than others. It's illegal in all countries, though. (Thailand, Brazil, Pakistan / India, and Mauritania have the largest slave populations today.)

Read: Disposable People It will make you cry and angry.
 

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