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What Judaism IS--well, sort of...

cnorman18

Critical Thinker
Joined
Oct 22, 2007
Messages
304
You're welcome, but after reading all about what that religion isn't, could you enlighten me about what it IS? I mean, only halfway through your "A religion that ..." list, I started thinking: Is that a religion at all?

Hans

Whoo-eee, this is gonna be a long one. That's a bigger order than you know, and I truly do not consider myself qualified to fill it, but I'll try.

(Happily, this may also serve to distinguish Judaism from Unitarian-Universalism. There ARE a few differences.)

Before I begin, or attempt to begin, let me say this: I intentionally cast my original post in negative terms, trying to define what Judaism is NOT, as opposed to what it IS, as you have observed. I did so because many atheists and agnostics object to religion on grounds OTHER than s bare belief in God--and rightly so. It was my intention to show that Judaism ought not be criticized on those grounds (and for the record, neither should UUs, most Buddhists, Wiccans and other modern Pagans, and many others).

Another reason that I made no attempt to describe or, God help us, explain, Judaism in positive terms is that such an attempt might be construed as an effort to "win" others to my faith or convince them of its truth. Jews don't go there, and I most certainly don't either. JEWS DO NOT PROSELYTIZE, and have not done so since approximately the time of the fall of Rome.

I would emphasize most strongly here, then, that nothing I say should be taken as advocating that anyone take up Judaism or even agree with it or any aspect of it. I have been asked to describe Judaism in positive terms, and will attempt to do so. There is no further significance to my words; no "hidden messages", nor any intent to disparage anyone who does not share, or might even be hostile to, any belief or practice that I describe here. I do not see how I can be any clearer than that.

To begin at last, then: It is tempting to begin and end the matter with the words of the great first-century sage Hillel, who was famously asked to explain the whole of Judaism while standing on one foot. Though other authorities had thrown the questioner out on his ear after hearing such an inquiry, Hillel lifted his foot and said: "That which is hurtful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is commentary. Now go and study."

Tempting, as I said, but in the present context a bit fatuous. Such a principle is shared by every religion of which I have ever heard, and so hardly distinguishes Judaism from any of them.

Still, it ought to be noted that that IS the supreme ethic of Judaism--and in Judaism, ethics are more important than "doctrine". To Jews, no "doctrine", no belief, no principle, no ritual practice, no custom, and no law is ever to be placed above the worth and welfare of the individual human being. It would be well to bear that in mind as one reads what follows.

It would be difficult, nay, impossible in a single post to adequately even summarize the content of the Jewish religion, let alone the distinctive Jewish culture that is so interwoven with it; but perhaps a synopsis of why that is so, with some appended remarks, will serve for the moment.

I shall borrow and and edit the following few paragraphs from Rabbi Milton Steinberg's fine book, Basic Judaism--probably the best short work available on the subject today. For those who wish to understand or learn more about our faith, it is highly recommended.

I shall not always use quotes, because I am largely paraphrasing and restating the rabbi's thoughts in my own words. Quoted material is given verbatim.

The Jewish religion is made up of seven "strands":

(1) A body of teachings about God, the Universe, and human beings;

(2) A system of moral principles for the individual and society;

(3) A collection of rites, customs, and ceremonies;

(4) A body of law;

(5) A sacred literature;

(6) Institutions for the preservation and expression of the above; and

(7) The Jewish people.

I would add

(8) The dimension of time, in that ALL of the above have been revised and adapted to changing circumstances and perceptions over the approximately 4,000 years of Jewish history. I am specifically including the sacred books; responsa, Midrashim, teaching tales and commentary are still being added to the corpus, and even our understanding of the Torah itself has changed, and that even in recent years.

Now it would seem to be possible to separate these threads--to discuss the teachings about God and the Universe separately from the ethic, or the teachings and ethics apart from the books, or any of those apart from the people; but such separation is, in practical terms, impossible.

"First, because, where the cords are actually distinct, they have knotted so tightly under the wear and tear of centuries that no amount of picking can pull them apart.

"And second, because the unity of Judaism is more than that of a knot. Most of the seemingly distinct threads are in reality different organs of the same creature, animated by a common spirit, reaching into and penetrating one another, no more to be isolated than the parts of a body.

"For--and this is the crux of the matter--Judaism is an organism; the fabric of its weaving is alive."

(Here ends my borrowing of material from the good rabbi. The rest of what follows is my own, and he ought not be blamed for it.)

This may sound like mere poetry or a facile metaphor. Stay tuned. It is literally true.

An example of the futility of any attempt to separate the strands:

#1, the teachings about God, the Universe, and humans, are probably of the most interest in the present discussion. However, they do not stand alone. They cannot be expressed without reference to the sacred books (5), especially the Torah; and even there, they are virtually never stated directly. They must be inferred from those documents by the Jewish people (7), who collectively determine their meaning in and through various institutions of learning and study (6), express and symbolize them in liturgy and ritual (3), and revise them over time (8) in relation to the moral code (2) and the laws (4) derived from it. All these are a single entity.

If these relationships, and this structure, seem overly complicated, it might be well to remember that this "system", so to speak, was not conceived and designed by any human agency--no man or committee ever thought this up or drew a master diagram or flowchart that spelled out these related areas and their interaction. Before you assume that I am speaking of God, I will say that He didn't do it, either.

Judaism grew and developed on its own over the centuries; rather like a living thing, as Rabbi Steinberg indicated. It has adapted and changed according to its environment and nurture, and grown more complex and varied in its parts. Like a living tree, it remains flexible in the wind, and, also like a tree, that flexibility has built-in limits. Too, parts of it occasionally die or are destroyed, but the whole continues to live and grow. And, though it is a complicated and ever-changing organism, it remains recognizable and essentially a simple thing: a tree. Judaism. The same as it was and will be, ever changing and somehow always the same. (It is no accident that the Torah, and the Jewish faith itself, is often called the Etz Chayim--the Tree of Life.)

Your own appearance and circumstances have changed over the years, and will continue to do so; yet you remain you, and those who know you still know who you are, and love you--or hate you--just the same.

Very well, then; all these "strands" are inextricably intertwined. Beliefs, ethics, laws, ritual, books, institutions, and the people; all one, living organism, ever changing yet ever the same, yada yada yada.

What is there that does NOT change? What makes Judaism, Judaism? What teachings or principles or whatever distinguish it from all other faiths?

Here we go. I shall now break all the rules and ignore all the principles I just laid down as immutable and impossible to ignore, and tell you what Jews believe. Here goes...

First, Jews believe in God.

(Duh.)

Okay, I've lost most of you right there. That's okay; like I said, I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything. I'm just trying to explain what Jews believe.

Everything else flows from this first principle, so if you want to understand, try to put aside your contempt and superior understanding for a few minutes and bear with me. Besides, it gets worse.

We believe that God is One.

That is a bit more than just "one God." it means that God is absolutely unique, impossible to compare to any other force or being. He is no Grandfather in the Sky with an avuncular smile and a long white beard; such a conception is blasphemous. He is without body or form, incorporeal, and unaffected by any force or power; He is separate from and above all attributes of the Universe which we inhabit, and which He made. He is the Ein Sof, the Totally Other, the Unknowable. No man can understand or judge Him, nor begin to apprehend His nature.
Whatever we may conceive Him to be, He is beyond it. As Arthur C. Clarke said of the Universe, He is not only stranger than we think, He is stranger than we CAN think.

Anyone who claims to "know God," or claims to speak for Him, is ipso facto either a fraud or insane.

(The quite reasonable objection that the Biblical prophets did just that may be answered by merely reading their books. Every one of them--every single one--was absolutely compelled to do what he did and say what he said, very much against his will. Moses himself protested that he was incapable and unworthy to the point that God grew angry with him. Jonah tried to get out of Dodge by taking ship for parts unknown, and we all know what happened after that. The attitude of every one of them was, "Why ME? I don't want to DO this!" The pattern is consistent--and NONE of them claimed to be holy themselves, or to be perfect role models, or demanded money--or appeared on TV in a $4,000 suit with blowdried hair.)

God is Sovereign. That means He is beyond our manipulation. When He spoke to Moses from the Burning Bush, He gave his Name as "Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh," usually translated as "I am What I am"--but the Hebrew is in a kind of "eternal tense". The real meaning is closer to, "I was What I was, I am What I am, and I will be What I will be." Clear implication: You cannot change Me or determine what I will do. (It was commonly believed in the ancient world that if you knew the true name of a thing, you could control it; God was making it quite clear that that notion did not apply to Him.)

TV evangelists who claim to be able to deliver miracles on demand, "faith healers," and those who assure you that if you will only send them money, pray their specified prayers, and/or follow their program of guaranteed spiritual enlightenment, that God will bless you, heal you, and make you rich are engaging in blasphemy and arrogance of the highest order. They are essentially claiming to be able to give orders to God Himself.

Speaking for myself, I would be reluctant to give orders to a child that was not my own. One shudders.

We now come to an even more difficult, not to say ludicrous, belief from the point of view of most who will read this; Jews believe that God--this sovereign, eternal, omnipotent and unknowable God--spoke to us.

And that's not outrageous enough; He didn't just speak to us through some individual holy man, through Abraham or Moses or whoever. That could be doubted, and rightly so; holy men who spoke for God, or claimed to, were ten cents a hundred in the ancient world, just like today. No, that wasn't certain enough, not striking enough, too likely to be shrugged off or forgotten. God spoke to us all, all at once, amid smoke and fire and the deafening blare of ram's horns, from a mountaintop around which we had all gathered to listen. And we all heard Him, each in his own tongue, all at once, and His voice was far beyond thunder. We fell on our faces and begged Him to stop before we died from hearing Him speak to us directly, and pleaded with Him to speak to us only through Moses.

(Some may object to my use of the word "we," since I wasn't there, and especially since I am a convert and was not born Jewish. Suffice it to say that the Torah itself states that we were ALL, in some sense, there. The truth of that symbolic statement might become clear in what follows.)

Now that you're all thoroughly amused and/or disgusted, let's stop and clarify a few points.

First, it is not important, and never was, whether or not this tale is literally true in an objective, historical sense. Most liberal Jews today don't believe that it is, but we tell the story anyway; as an aid to memory and a way to fix the principle in one's mind, it's a pretty hard story to beat. Whether God gave us His Laws by burning letters into slabs of red granite right in front of Charlton Heston's face, or through the collective, cumulative wisdom of the best and wisest of our people--who began the process by cribbing from the laws of Hammurabi and then slowly refined and humanized them over a span of centuries--it does not matter. The Laws, and the principles behind them, stand on their own.

From the very beginning, the laws and practices of Judaism have been judged, altered, adapted and modified by human beings, explicitly independent of any Supreme Being. God's opinion no longer matters, and--according to Jewish tradition--has not mattered since Sinai.

Do you doubt this? Can you believe that our religion does NOT invoke the authority of the Almighty when discussing any question of ethics, "doctrine", ritual, or anything else, but that all such matters are ONLY decided by the logical arguments of humans, acknowledged by the whole community to be good and wise?

It is true beyond question. One of the most famous stories in the literature is that of an argument among the sages of old. The subject does not matter; it concerned a dispute over the dietary laws, and a minor dispute at that.

As the story goes, the council had agreed on a conclusion--but one man, a particularly wise and pious sage, disagreed. He attempted to change the council's decision by producing various miracles; "If I am right, let that tree move from its place to another a hundred cubits away"--and so it did.

(For those not paying attention, this is a teaching story, a parable. Its historicity is not asserted and is a trivial point. Observe the principle taught.)

Even after several such displays, each more astonishing than the last, the council refused to budge. Finally, the dissenter called upon God Himself to confirm his judgment--and God did just that. A Voice from the sky proclaimed that sage's decision to be the correct one.

The leader of the council then stood and REBUKED GOD, with the remarkable words, "The Torah is not in Heaven!" and the decision of the council stood.

The principle is simple and important: Now that God has entrusted His laws and principles to humans, by whatever means, it is now OUR responsibility to understand and interpret them; we may depend on miraculous displays and supernatural events no longer. We are to grow up and figure out for ourselves what is just and right, and the Torah itself is subject to human judgment.

And what, according to the story, was God's reaction to this?

He is said to have laughed. "My children have defeated Me!" God was pleased at the development of humans standing on their own, needing His guidance no longer. That is apparently what He intended.

We're almost finished. ("Thank--uh, whoever," some of you are saying.)

Now that the process that has formed, and is still forming, the body of Jewish teaching and practice is clear (I hope), the rest is anticlimactic. For Jews, ethics are above doctrine or theology; the enormous mass of discussions and arguments in the Talmud and later works have to do with proper and righteous actions, and very rarely indeed with how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. (There is much of that sort of thing in the folk literature, and it's regarded as fun and interesting, but ultimately trivial.)

The core of the Torah, and of Judaism generally, is the laws--moral laws--that we believe God gave us. Initially, of course, there were ten; though there are conceded to be many others in the Books, most of the other 603 laws for Jews (a traditional and symbolic number; no one has ever produced a definitive list) are derived from the Ten Words, as Jews call them.

And they are really nothing very special. They basically boil down to two principles: "I am God, the real deal; accept no substitutes and don't be suckered by phonies," and, as outlined at the beginning here, "If you don't like it, don't lay it on anybody else." (Corollary to that would be, "Hey, don't forget to treat YOURSELF right, too; take a day off once a week. I did.")

Everything else in Judaism--everything--is derived from those two rather reasonable ideas (conceding that the first is only "reasonable" if one allows the possibility of there being a God in the first place).

So why didn't God just give us two Commandments instead of ten? Moses would only have had to carry one little rock instead of two big ones. My guess is that God was very aware of the capacity of humans for hypocrisy and rationalization. "Hey, I don't care if you mess with MY wife..." "Well, he doesn't really need it, and I do, so I'm gonna take it." And so on. We need specifics. The sages of old had even less faith in human nature than God did; they tried to spell out every conceivable detail of what is right and not right in every field of human endeavor--for Jews, anyway. 613 Commandments, and one heckuva lot of customs beyond those.

Gentiles have it easier. In Jewish tradition, they are subject to only seven laws, and some of them aren't in the Ten. As far as figuring out what other laws ought to be derived from those, you guys are on your own, just like we are (and we profess to know nothing about what happens if they aren't followed, either. Not our business.).

So there it is, as inadequate as this poor presentation has been. If your objection to religion is the bare belief in a God, well, that can't be helped. But if you're hostile toward the supernatural in general, you won't get much disagreement from us. So are we. You won't catch a rabbi telling anyone to throw away his insulin, cancel his surgery, and jump out of his wheelchair and dance. Oh, we pray for healing, to be sure; but we expect to receive it--if we do--at the hands of a physician and not through a parting of the clouds. So God has nothing to do with it? Well, no; He made that doctor's brain and hands, and those of the other doctors who taught him his trade.

In my opinion, Judaism is not really comparable with any other religion. It is sui generis, unique. Does that mean it is the One True Faith? Do we Jews hold The Truth, and those who hold all other faiths, or none, are ignorant, benighted and doomed?

Some Jews might feel that way, but the voice of the tradition, which is in this matter authoritative, is clear. We know only how God chose to speak to US. How He may choose to deal with others is no business of ours, and we have no warrant to either endorse or reject any other faith or to judge those with none.

Peace to all. I apologize for the length of this post, but I felt compelled to be as clear and complete as I could manage.

Questions and comments are welcome, though I will not feel compelled to answer them all--and particularly those that imply that I am either lying or a fool. Feel free to hold those opinions, but I see no need to try to prove either my intelligence or my sincerity to anyone.

Thanks for reading.
 
In my opinion, Judaism is not really comparable with any other religion.

In my opinion it's easily comparable with Islam, and comparable with any other religion. There's no revelation in Judaism, nor in any religion. All religions are crafted by their cultures. All claim the common good as their foundation.

It is sui generis, unique.

All religions are unique, all emerge from unique cultures. Christianity is unique - as was the Roman Empire that it was moulded to.
 
Thanks for the comments

In my opinion it's easily comparable with Islam, and comparable with any other religion. There's no revelation in Judaism, nor in any religion. All religions are crafted by their cultures. All claim the common good as their foundation."

I see your point. However, to my knowledge, Judaism is the only religion that was founded upon an (alleged) revelation to ALL the people; but even if one discounts that, there is still the issue of Jews placing the principles of their ethics above Scripture. I don't see a lot of Muslims eager to amend or ignore parts of the Koran.

"All religions are unique, all emerge from unique cultures. Christianity is unique - as was the Roman Empire that it was moulded to."

Point taken. No two are alike.
 
Thanks for taking the time to write a really interesting OP.

Does your description of Judaism refer to a specific flavor of the faith, like Reform for example? Or does this description apply to all varieties of Judaism, including Orthodox, Conservative, etc.

I was struck by your discussion of God. Contrasting this:

God is absolutely unique, impossible to compare to any other force or being. He is no Grandfather in the Sky with an avuncular smile and a long white beard; such a conception is blasphemous. He is without body or form, incorporeal, and unaffected by any force or power; He is separate from and above all attributes of the Universe which we inhabit, and which He made. He is the Ein Sof, the Totally Other, the Unknowable. No man can understand or judge Him, nor begin to apprehend His nature.

with this:

Jews believe that God--this sovereign, eternal, omnipotent and unknowable God--spoke to us.

seems to go to the very crux of what religion might mean in general, namely, an experience of the "Unknowable," of the "Totally Other." But if you can experience it, if it speaks to you, then it's not fully "Unknowable" or "Totally Other," right?
 
He is separate from and above all attributes of the Universe which we inhabit, and which He made. He is the Ein Sof, the Totally Other, the Unknowable. No man can understand or judge Him, nor begin to apprehend His nature.

If god is unknowable, how do we know he's unknowable? If he's unknowable, then we know nothing about god, including whether he's knowable or not.
 
Thanks for the comments

Thanks for the comments and the questions.

I am speaking from the viewpoint of a rather liberal Conservative Jew. Most Reform Jews would buy into this piece, though they place much less importance on the body of law and the ritual. Many Orthodox would sign off on it too, though they would be very unhappy with my contention that the laws and teachings continue to change. For most Orthodox, they don't. The proper practices were determined sometime around the late Middle Ages, and haven't changed much since. They are also more likely to insist that the Exodus, for instance, happened just as the book says it did, and in fact everything from about Abraham forward, and maybe Noah. No Jew takes the first couple of chapters of. Genesis literally--I don't think.

Interesting that you both focused on the same point. It looks like a logical contradiction, but it isn't.

It is perfectly correct to say that this is the essence of revelation. No, we cannot know God--unless He chooses to reveal Himself. We cannot pierce the veil, but He can. That is the only way.

One wonders, in fact, how humans could have made this religion up. Apollo would be easy; your high-school team captain writ large. But who could invent the Ein Sof?

Arthur Clarke, maybe.

Anyway, thanks. I like questions. Please ask more.

Charles
 
If god is unknowable, how do we know he's unknowable? If he's unknowable, then we know nothing about god, including whether he's knowable or not.


It is meant to be an aknowledge ment that certain things are unknowable, a very similar concept is found in the greek philosphers as well.

To describe the ultimate one must use the penultimate because words are bound.

So the first describer (or the last veil) is NOT

: the absolute is NOT like anything that can be described in words. it is NOT like anything that be expressed in human terms.

then the second describer of the second veil is LIMIT

which is an extended reflection of the first

: the absolute is not limited it is unbound, it exists as it is, not as humans would care to describe it.

Sometime the conjubction of NOT LIMIT is described as 'Limitless'


The third describer and the first veil is LIGHT

: the absolute is compered to light, it moves so fast it is imperceptible in movement, it permetates and deliniates. It has no favorites, it shine every where.


So the conjunction of all three is Limitless Light, although this is more a paraphrasing of the greek conception than the Ain Soph Aur.


But this is all meant to be a metaphorical description of divinity. You have the tree which is the creation of the absolute (or the gods which lie beyond the veil if you are pluarlistic)

On the tree there and ten spheres and twenty paths which can also be extended in four planes.

Some see it as a metaphorical description of reality ( and one that has spme cool astrological stuff , because the son is at the center of the tree).

But spiritually it is also a list of the fetters or links that lie between man and divinity. The ten spheres are concepts that stand between man and god and the three veils are the last three.
 
Thanks for the comments and the questions.

I am speaking from the viewpoint of a rather liberal Conservative Jew. Most Reform Jews would buy into this piece, though they place much less importance on the body of law and the ritual. Many Orthodox would sign off on it too, though they would be very unhappy with my contention that the laws and teachings continue to change. For most Orthodox, they don't. The proper practices were determined sometime around the late Middle Ages, and haven't changed much since. They are also more likely to insist that the Exodus, for instance, happened just as the book says it did, and in fact everything from about Abraham forward, and maybe Noah. No Jew takes the first couple of chapters of. Genesis literally--I don't think.

Interesting that you both focused on the same point. It looks like a logical contradiction, but it isn't.

It is perfectly correct to say that this is the essence of revelation. No, we cannot know God--unless He chooses to reveal Himself. We cannot pierce the veil, but He can. That is the only way.

One wonders, in fact, how humans could have made this religion up. Apollo would be easy; your high-school team captain writ large. But who could invent the Ein Sof?

Arthur Clarke, maybe.

Anyway, thanks. I like questions. Please ask more.

Charles

Similar concepts are not unknown, you have the dao especially, which is described in similar terms but is a very different concept. there are certain things we shall never know about other religions as well due to the destrcution of their sacred texts. there are aspects of hindu philosophy which are similar and hints in egyptian texts that they may have had similar concepts.

I am not sure apollo would be the high school football capitain.

I would say there are many aspects that are more like Jim Morrison of the Doors. And others that are more like Shakespear. it varies from locality to locality as well because most of the ancient religions may have used the same name but had a different deity.

I like your essay but it makes me also think of the concept of judaism as a secular culture as well. there are the aspects of the relion but there are also the cultural aspects as well.

very nice.
 
Thanks very much

"Similar concepts are not unknown..."

True enough. Nobody ever said that each and every concept in Judaism was unique to it.

Jim Morrison? Maybe.

(When I was in seminary--I used to be a Christian--I remember seeing a debate on our dedicated "graffiti wall" over whether or not the Christian church would collapse if it were reliably determined that Jesus looked like Don Knotts. I don't recall that we ever reached a conclusion.)

"I like your essay but it makes me also think of the concept of judaism as a secular culture as well. there are the aspects of the relion but there are also the cultural aspects as well."

Very true, but imagine how long my post might have been if I had attempted to address THAT....

"very nice."

Thanks very much.

I frankly expected to get more incoming fire on this thread. I wonder what I did wrong?

Peace.

Charles
 
Interesting that you both focused on the same point. It looks like a logical contradiction, but it isn't.

It is perfectly correct to say that this is the essence of revelation. No, we cannot know God--unless He chooses to reveal Himself. We cannot pierce the veil, but He can. That is the only way.

I understand what you're saying, and I'm not trying to play up any logical contradiction here. But it seems to me that "Totally Other" isn't quite right, because "Totally Other" becomes manifest under the scenario you present.

You wrote:

God spoke to us all, all at once, amid smoke and fire and the deafening blare of ram's horns, from a mountaintop around which we had all gathered to listen. And we all heard Him ...

Adopting this perspective, wouldn't it be more precise to put this into the present tense? As in, God speaks to us all, here and now. Or is the Jewish perspective that God spoke at some time in the past but does not speak now, and that in the "here and now" God has become "Totally Other" once again?
 
"Similar concepts are not unknown..."

True enough. Nobody ever said that each and every concept in Judaism was unique to it.

Jim Morrison? Maybe.

(When I was in seminary--I used to be a Christian--I remember seeing a debate on our dedicated "graffiti wall" over whether or not the Christian church would collapse if it were reliably determined that Jesus looked like Don Knotts. I don't recall that we ever reached a conclusion.)
I think maybe more like Yasir`Arrafat or Saddam Hussien I think Don Knotts would make a better Judas.
"I like your essay but it makes me also think of the concept of judaism as a secular culture as well. there are the aspects of the relion but there are also the cultural aspects as well."

Very true, but imagine how long my post might have been if I had attempted to address THAT....

"very nice."

Thanks very much.

I frankly expected to get more incoming fire on this thread. I wonder what I did wrong?

Peace.

Charles
 
The Jewish religion is made up of seven "strands":
.......

......(7) The Jewish people.

The religion is made up of the people? Isn't there a circular definition here?
 
Whenever I am asked to define Judaism, I fall back on a quote from The Firsco Kid. It seems to perfectly embody my understanding of the religion. Gene Wilder, a rabbi from Poland, has been captured by American Indians who want his help imploring God to make it rain:

Chief Gray Cloud: [in reference to Avram's god] What does he do?
Avram: He... He can do anything!
Chief Gray Cloud: Then why can't he make rain?
Avram: Because he doesn't make rain. He gives us strength when we're suffering. He gives us compassion when all that we feel is hatred. He gives us courage when we're searching around blindly like little mice in the darkness... but he does not make rain!
[Thunder and lightning begin, followed by a downpour]
Avram: Of course... sometimes, just like that, he'll change his mind.
 
--

"I understand what you're saying, and I'm not trying to play up any logical contradiction here. But it seems to me that "Totally Other" isn't quite right, because "Totally Other" becomes manifest under the scenario you present."

Manifest, but certainly not completely known. We know a little about God; no one can know Him completely, and there is much we have to puzzle over.

You want a tough passage in Torah to chew on? Yet this one (I don't recall where it is--maybe someone with a good concordance can supply the reference):

God speaking: "I have created good, and evil."

We've been arguing about that one since He said it. Beats me.

"Adopting this perspective, wouldn't it be more precise to put this into the present tense? As in, God speaks to us all, here and now. Or is the Jewish perspective that God spoke at some time in the past but does not speak now, and that in the "here and now" God has become "Totally Other" once again?"

That last would be correct; since the last Prophet in the Bible, God speaks directly to no one (tough luck, Oral). He was always Totally Other, though, even when speaking.

The formulation is traditional, and not necessarily logically consistent; religious people aren't necessarily logical, remember? In any case, God is outside of the universe, in some sense (He made it), and though He has spoken, we have no clue about His essential nature. He hasn't given us any.

Thanks for the comments. Peace.

Charles
 
--

The Jewish religion is made up of seven "strands":
.......

......(7) The Jewish people.

The religion is made up of the people? Isn't there a circular definition here?

Of course. Judaism is nothing if not self-referential.

So is existence. "I think, therefore I am, therefore I think..."

The Circle of Life. Ouroboros, the snake eating its own tail. Nothing new there.
 
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Whenever I am asked to define Judaism, I fall back on a quote from The Firsco Kid. It seems to perfectly embody my understanding of the religion. Gene Wilder, a rabbi from Poland, has been captured by American Indians who want his help imploring God to make it rain:

Chief Gray Cloud: [in reference to Avram's god] What does he do?
Avram: He... He can do anything!
Chief Gray Cloud: Then why can't he make rain?
Avram: Because he doesn't make rain. He gives us strength when we're suffering. He gives us compassion when all that we feel is hatred. He gives us courage when we're searching around blindly like little mice in the darkness... but he does not make rain!
[Thunder and lightning begin, followed by a downpour]
Avram: Of course... sometimes, just like that, he'll change his mind.

That's pretty good.

Old Jewish saying: "If you want to make God laugh, tell Him your plans."
 
... since the last Prophet in the Bible, God speaks directly to no one (tough luck, Oral). He was always Totally Other, though, even when speaking.

So God is distant, not here and now?

Fitting that together with this:

And we all heard Him, each in his own tongue, all at once, and His voice was far beyond thunder. We fell on our faces and begged Him to stop before we died from hearing Him speak to us directly, and pleaded with Him to speak to us only through Moses.

(Some may object to my use of the word "we," since I wasn't there, and especially since I am a convert and was not born Jewish. Suffice it to say that the Torah itself states that we were ALL, in some sense, there. The truth of that symbolic statement might become clear in what follows.)

Can you explain more about how we were all there?

If the symbolism of "God speaking" is brought into the present moment (as in, we are ALL, in some sense, HERE), would that be a distortion of Judaism?
 
I see your point. However, to my knowledge, Judaism is the only religion that was founded upon an (alleged) revelation to ALL the people ...

As I recall it's founded on a revelation to one person - Abraham.

but even if one discounts that, there is still the issue of Jews placing the principles of their ethics above Scripture. I don't see a lot of Muslims eager to amend or ignore parts of the Koran.

Interpretation of Scripture is as fundamental to Islamic scholarship as it is to Jewish scolarship, and the moral principles are the same. It's common in any text-based religion for most followers to let scripture dominate their moral sense. Most believers aren't theologians; they go by what the priest says, and very few priests are theologians. "The Book says ..." is an easy, unimpeachable answer on any subject.


Point taken. No two are alike.

And there's no ranking system.
 

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