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What is important to you?

rwp

Thinker
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Messages
207
What ideas or morals do you value and believe in? What do you think about life, the universe and everything (besides 42)?

It seems that posts are more often about what is not right or not true. It would be interesting to know what you value and what is true for you. Do you have any beliefs about how people should behave (or similar thoughts)?

Do you have any goals that you would like to share?
 
What ideas or morals do you value and believe in? What do you think about life, the universe and everything (besides 42)?

It seems that posts are more often about what is not right or not true. It would be interesting to know what you value and what is true for you. Do you have any beliefs about how people should behave (or similar thoughts)?

Do you have any goals that you would like to share?
Empathy and the "Greater Good" are the foundations of all morality. The so-called Golden Rule, while too simplistic for practical application, is a rough guideline for ethical beliefs. But as knowledge increases, we find that what might superficially appear ethical is not necessarily so, especially in the "Big Picture", or long-term view.

My feeling is that we should operate out of enlightened self-interest. There is nothing wrong with wanting personal happiness, but an enlightened person has a hard time feeling happy when he knows his actions are harming others. At the same time, an enlightened person also knows that he cannot solve all the world's problems, so he must strike a balance between personal happiness and empathy for others.

It is this delicate balance upon which morality hinges. We all perceive differently what the Greater Good entails. Although there will always be disagreements about this, it is my feeling that knowledge is what keeps us on the right track. Ignorance is the enemy of Greater Good. I can give many examples of this, from global warming to the debate on handguns, but I feel that would be outside the scope of this thread.

So in a general statement on my opinion of morality would be, the more self-centered a person is, the less likely they are to be moral. Screw you, Ayn Rand.
 
So in a general statement on my opinion of morality would be, the more self-centered a person is, the less likely they are to be moral. Screw you, Ayn Rand.

A newly literate Officer Barbrady hold up a copy of Atlas Shrugged and says, "And then I read this piece of crap and I decided to never read another book as long as I live."

Steven
 
On behalf of Rand, right back atchya.

Don't think you get it. Too bad. Your responsibility.

I don't agree with her on everything, but her writings have had a lot of affect on my thinking. I haven't been impressed by her attackers on this board, at least in their approach to this topic.

I've gotten to the point where I have zero interest in trying to persuade anyone of anything - it is an utter waste of my time. Just wanted to make sure you understood that not everyone agrees with you.
 
It is this delicate balance upon which morality hinges. We all perceive differently what the Greater Good entails. Although there will always be disagreements about this, it is my feeling that knowledge is what keeps us on the right track. Ignorance is the enemy of Greater Good. I can give many examples of this, from global warming to the debate on handguns, but I feel that would be outside the scope of this thread.

So in a general statement on my opinion of morality would be, the more self-centered a person is, the less likely they are to be moral. Screw you, Ayn Rand.
This reminds me of one of my favorite letters I’ve read from Thomas Jefferson, entitled The Moral Sense.

Here is a section of that letter that letter, which your statement reminded me of.
Self-interest, or rather self-love, or egoism, has been more plausibly substituted as the basis of morality. But I consider our relations with others as constituting the boundaries of morality. With ourselves we stand on the ground of identity, not of relation, which last, requiring two subjects, excludes self-love confined to a single one. To ourselves, in strict language, we can owe no duties, obligation requiring also two parties. Self-love, therefore, is no part of morality. Indeed it is exactly its counterpart. It is the sole antagonist of virtue, leading us constantly by our propensities to self-gratification in violation of our moral duties to others. Accordingly, it is against this enemy that are erected the batteries of moralists and religionists, as the only obstacle to the practice of morality. Take from man his selfish propensities, and he can have nothing to seduce him from the practice of virtue. Or subdue those propensities by education, instruction or restraint, and virtue remains without a competitor.

Egoism, in a broader sense, has been thus presented as the source of moral action. It has been said that we feed the hungry, clothe the naked, bind up the wounds of the man beaten by thieves, pour oil and wine into them, set him on our own beast and bring him to the inn, because we receive ourselves pleasure from these acts... This indeed is true. But it is one step short of the ultimate question. These good acts give us pleasure, but how happens it that they give us pleasure? Because nature hath implanted in our breasts a love of others, a sense of duty to them, a moral instinct, in short, which prompts us irresistibly to feel and to succor their distresses, and protests against the language of Helvetius, [ib. 2, 5,] "what other motive than self-interest could determine a man to generous actions? It is as impossible for him to love what is good for the sake of good, as to love evil for the sake of evil."

The Creator would indeed have been a bungling artist, had he intended man for a social animal, without planting in him social dispositions. It is true they are not planted in every man, because there is no rule without exceptions; but it is false reasoning which converts exceptions into the general rule. Some men are born without the organs of sight, or of hearing, or without hands. Yet it would be wrong to say that man is born without these faculties, and sight, hearing, and hands may with truth enter into the general definition of man. The want or imperfection of the moral sense in some men, like the want or imperfection of the senses of sight and hearing in others, is no proof that it is a general characteristic of the species. When it is wanting, we endeavor to supply the defect by education, by appeals to reason and calculation, by presenting to the being so unhappily conformed, other motives to do good and to eschew evil, such as the love, or the hatred, or rejection of those among whom he lives, and whose society is necessary to his happiness and even existence; demonstrations by sound calculation that honesty promotes interest in the long run; the rewards and penalties established by the laws; and ultimately the prospects of a future state of retribution for the evil as well as the good done while here.

These are the correctives which are supplied by education, and which exercise the functions of the moralist, the preacher, and legislator; and they lead into a course of correct action all those whose disparity is not too profound to be eradicated. Some have argued against the existence of a moral sense, by saying that if nature had given us such a sense, impelling us to virtuous actions, and warning us against those which are vicious, then nature would also have designated, by some particular ear-marks, the two sets of actions which are, in themselves, the one virtuous and the other vicious. Whereas, we find, in fact, that the same actions are deemed virtuous in one country and vicious in another. The answer is that nature has constituted utility to man the standard and best of virtue. Men living in different countries, under different circumstances, different habits and regimens, may have different utilities; the same act, therefore, may be useful, and consequently virtuous in one country which is injurious and vicious in another differently circumstanced. sincerely, then, believe with you in the general existence of a moral instinct. I think it the brightest gem with which the human character is studded, and the want of it as more degrading than the most hideous of the bodily deformities.

Seems awfully big here, but I couldn’t find the right spot to cut it off. :) The full letter can be read here.
 
I am surprised that only a few people responded. Anyone else care to share?
 
What ideas or morals do you value and believe in?

What ideas do I value? Well, almost all of them. Even some of the really crazy ones I've tried on for size, and were if nothing else a learning experience. I "believe in" quite a large number of them, way to many to list. Did you have something specific in mind you wanted to find out about?

What "morals" do I value? You'll need to tell me what you mean by that.

What do you think about life, the universe and everything (besides 42)?

Life: Better than the alternative
Universe: There isn't an alternative. Learning about it is neat.
Everything: There are a few things I could do without. Like houseflies.

It seems that posts are more often about what is not right or not true.

That's because that's what people bring. And discussions about stuff that we like in common tend to be pretty short.

It would be interesting to know what you value and what is true for you.

Again, that's a pretty wide net to cast. Narrow it down a bit.

Do you have any beliefs about how people should behave (or similar thoughts)?

Yes.

Do you have any goals that you would like to share?

I'd like to force myself to finish my book.
 
What ideas do I value? Well, almost all of them. Even some of the really crazy ones I've tried on for size, and were if nothing else a learning experience. I "believe in" quite a large number of them, way to many to list. Did you have something specific in mind you wanted to find out about?

What "morals" do I value? You'll need to tell me what you mean by that.

Life: Better than the alternative
Universe: There isn't an alternative. Learning about it is neat.
Everything: There are a few things I could do without. Like houseflies.

That's because that's what people bring. And discussions about stuff that we like in common tend to be pretty short.

Again, that's a pretty wide net to cast. Narrow it down a bit.

Yes.

I'd like to force myself to finish my book.

I would rather not narrow it down because it is meant to be a general question. I just want to know what interests people. If you have to pick one interest, then what most interests you?

I am curious to know your beliefs about how people should behave. What would be ideal in your opinion?

Any answers are just fine (and when I say "you", I mean anyone).
 
I would rather not narrow it down because it is meant to be a general question. I just want to know what interests people. If you have to pick one interest, then what most interests you?
Not dying.

I am curious to know your beliefs about how people should behave. What would be ideal in your opinion?
Ideal? Everyone else should do what I tell them, and generally work to serve me.
 
I would rather not narrow it down because it is meant to be a general question. I just want to know what interests people. If you have to pick one interest, then what most interests you?

Right now? Sex robots. Lost. The book about incestuous sideshow freaks that I just found out my mom's friend is sending me. Death, and the effect it has had on our psychology. Battle Royale, because I just bought it and rewatched it last night. Tom Leykis. When my daughter is going to finally start menstruating, because all her mood swings are annoying.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

I am curious to know your beliefs about how people should behave. What would be ideal in your opinion?

Ideally, people should leave each other alone. Stop externalising their own psychodramas to involve as many other people as possible.

We should also outlaw telephones and cars.

Any answers are just fine (and when I say "you", I mean anyone).
What do you mean when you say "me"?
 
What if the truth happens to be the human person has no dignity?
That is a good question. In my case, I accept the truth of the dignity of each human person, so I dont have a problem with holding both the "pursuit of truth" and the "dignity of the person" as values together. But I can also take your question hypothetically, so...

"Dignity" concerns whether something is worthy of respect, should be treated in a way that accepts its goodness, and so on. If someone wants to expand on this definition, well, please do.

People can feel this way about the flag, or the constitution... for example, in the video "bu11$h1t bible", Penn and Teller burn a bible, but they treat the copy of the constitution with respect, or so it appears.

Now, if we admit the hypothesis that the human person has no intrinsic "worthiness of respect", then by what grounds would we argue that people should be treated in a certain way (forbid cruel and unusual punishment for example), that there are inalienable rights which the state must respect, and so on?
 
Empathy and the "Greater Good" are the foundations of all morality. The so-called Golden Rule, while too simplistic for practical application, is a rough guideline for ethical beliefs. But as knowledge increases, we find that what might superficially appear ethical is not necessarily so, especially in the "Big Picture", or long-term view.

My feeling is that we should operate out of enlightened self-interest. There is nothing wrong with wanting personal happiness, but an enlightened person has a hard time feeling happy when he knows his actions are harming others. At the same time, an enlightened person also knows that he cannot solve all the world's problems, so he must strike a balance between personal happiness and empathy for others.

It is this delicate balance upon which morality hinges. We all perceive differently what the Greater Good entails. Although there will always be disagreements about this, it is my feeling that knowledge is what keeps us on the right track. Ignorance is the enemy of Greater Good. I can give many examples of this, from global warming to the debate on handguns, but I feel that would be outside the scope of this thread.

So in a general statement on my opinion of morality would be, the more self-centered a person is, the less likely they are to be moral. Screw you, Ayn Rand.
I agree with everything you said with the exception of the "Screw you Ayn Rand" part.

In all honesty I don't think you are all that far from Rand. Rand wasn't against philanthropy or charity. She was against philanthropy or charity for the sake of philanthropy or charity. She believed that the interest of the individual should not be sacrificed simply for the good of society, the poor, the weak or god. She believed that it is in the best interest of society, the poor and the weak to elevate the interest of the individual (see Declaration of Independence). She didn't believe in god so that point was academic.

Ayn's philosophy rested in large part on two basic premises.
  1. That basic human nature is not fundamentally destructive.
  2. That economic resources need not be scarce (economic prosperity is not a zero sum game)
#1, it is in the individual's best interest to have productive societies and thus productive citizens of that society. It is in our interest to help those in need so long as the help does not become an end to itself.

#2, individuals need not sacrifice their resources or personal happiness to prevent a conflict of the needs of those resources.

(My thanks to slingblade for her help in my understanding Rand's view of philanthropy and charity)
 
It seems that posts are more often about what is not right or not true. It would be interesting to know what you value and what is true for you. Do you have any beliefs about how people should behave (or similar thoughts)?
I don't think you can change human nature and I don't even want to. Civilisation isn't about creating more civilised people, its about building societies that allow us to express our nature in rich, constructive, creative ways.
 

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