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What happens when a Buddhist dies?

jan

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J
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Sep 11, 2003
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The popular distortion of Buddhism seems to be something like this: we have an immortal soul, and the moment we die, this soul searches a new host, and we are born again. Easy to understand (otherwise it wouldn't be popular), but not Buddhism.

In fact, Buddhism insists that our consciousness is something that is depending, and nothing being depending can be forever. Furthermore, there is no "self", no "me": this is just an illusion.

Nevertheless, the rules of causation somehow enforce that all that I have done has some consequences, which is supposed to mean that my trouble doesn't end after my death.

If I am just an illusion, who will continue to suffer after my death? Why should I worry about enlightenment, if my life is bound to end anyway? How does this reincarnation thing work?

Any Buddhists out there to enlighten me?
 
Oooh somebody who might appreciate my Buddhist joke!

"Enlighnment is easy... everyone gets it right the first time!"

:D :D :D
 
Hi Jan. Look up the word "nirvana" once, and see what you get.

It's very coincidental you should be posting this. Just this morning, a thought came into my head out of the blue. I suddenly wondered what the difference was exactly betweem shangra la and nirvana. So...when I looked up nirvana, well...anyway....look it up..
 
jan said:
The popular distortion of Buddhism seems to be something like this: we have an immortal soul, and the moment we die, this soul searches a new host, and we are born again. Easy to understand (otherwise it wouldn't be popular), but not Buddhism.

In fact, Buddhism insists that our consciousness is something that is depending, and nothing being depending can be forever. Furthermore, there is no "self", no "me": this is just an illusion.

Nevertheless, the rules of causation somehow enforce that all that I have done has some consequences, which is supposed to mean that my trouble doesn't end after my death.

If I am just an illusion, who will continue to suffer after my death? Why should I worry about enlightenment, if my life is bound to end anyway? How does this reincarnation thing work?

Any Buddhists out there to enlighten me?
Click to expand...

I recommend reading Thich Naht Hahn The Heart of the Teachings of the Buddha , I think that the garden analogy would apply hear, acts that cause pain and suffering will perpetuate pain and suffering, just as plants will disperse seeds. So while we may not always live to see the consequences of all our acts, they are like seeds.

There is no reason seek the path of the buddha except to alleviate your own suffering, if you care to change it.

Reincarnation, it is part of the Mhayana but not part of the buddha teachings. The closest he came was to say that an idea is like a lamp in a room , and that the same lamp may light different rooms. The buddha denied the existance of atman, and so never believed in reincarnation.

When a buddha dies an angel gets a beer!
 
jan said:
The popular distortion of Buddhism seems to be something like this: we have an immortal soul, and the moment we die, this soul searches a new host, and we are born again. Easy to understand (otherwise it wouldn't be popular), but not Buddhism.

In fact, Buddhism insists that our consciousness is something that is depending, and nothing being depending can be forever. Furthermore, there is no "self", no "me": this is just an illusion.

Nevertheless, the rules of causation somehow enforce that all that I have done has some consequences, which is supposed to mean that my trouble doesn't end after my death.

If I am just an illusion, who will continue to suffer after my death? Why should I worry about enlightenment, if my life is bound to end anyway? How does this reincarnation thing work?

Any Buddhists out there to enlighten me?
Click to expand...

I'm a semi-practicer, and I'm probably about to bite of more than I can chew, but:
Buddhism has several different answers on the fate of the individual after death. In The Tibetan Book of the Dead people do have souls, and they pass through different parts of an after-life, either choosing to stay with this-or-that Buddha or facing re-birth in the material world. Sotto Zen sects, however, say that since you are simply sunyata (an interesting word, perhaps best translated as configuration and most normally illustrated by the relationship of the fist to the hand) you just sort of de-configure. Unlike many western religions, Buddhism has not really had a central, trans-national authority to settle doctrinal disputes, and Buddhists of various areas were free to come to their own conclusions on such matters, resulting in...well..rather a large number of conclusions.
 
According to Mahayana Buddhism, the self-illusion continues on after death, but is still an illusion which is continually changing with no component that could be seen as a permanent individual self.

Of course the real answer to "What happens when a Buddhist dies?" is:
Nobody knows.
 
RCNelson said:

Of course the real answer to "What happens when a Buddhist dies?" is:
Click to expand...


The same thing that happens to a Christian/Muslim/Jew/Atheist/Agnostic/etc.etc....
 
As pointed out, different schools of Buddhism have different ideas about what happens after death. To begin with, may people confuse the Hindu transmigration of souls concept with the Buddhist samsara: the cycle of birth, death, and rebirth. It doesn't help that some sects, like the Tibetan, believe in an actual transmigration. For most, it's understood that our self - our consciousness - is an everchanging product of various components. That self does not survive death in its present form. "You" will not be reborn.

But the previous poster is also correct in that the correct Buddhist response is "Don't know." What happens after death is not important. We focus on the Now, on what we're doing in this lifetime. By entering fully into life, we focus on what's important.
 
Agammamon said:
I thought it was obvious, they go to burn in an everlasting, fiery hell!
Click to expand...

That's right!

They go burn in an everlasting, fiery hell... with the rest of the 99% of the human population THAT EVER LIVED!
 
Didn´t Bhudda preach that there was no god and that man was his own master?
Then again, that wouldn´t sit well with the masses so it´s no surprise a lot of Buddhist groups invented supernatural things to make it popular. =/
 
This is an amusing converstaion between me and my brother about buddhism a moment ago, slightly edited
Bah, I hate how conversations come out like this, ignore this if you´re not interested:

Death is not extinguishing the light; it is putting out the lamp because dawn has come. says:
i'm gonna be buddhist
Death is not extinguishing the light; it is putting out the lamp because dawn has come. says:
its the best
Komencanto (African AIDS victims proud to give their lives for intellectual property laws) says:
its ok
Death is not extinguishing the light; it is putting out the lamp because dawn has come. says:
serious
Komencanto (African AIDS victims proud to give their lives for intellectual property laws) says:
depends what flavour you like
Death is not extinguishing the light; it is putting out the lamp because dawn has come. says:
i think its good cos they dont tell u what to belive
Komencanto (African AIDS victims proud to give their lives for intellectual property laws) says:
persnoally i don´t think i need any rules like those in buddhism
i don´t see any advantage
Death is not extinguishing the light; it is putting out the lamp because dawn has come. says:
they just tell you stuff and let you expeirence for yourself
Komencanto (African AIDS victims proud to give their lives for intellectual property laws) says:
but secular buddhism has some good stuff
Death is not extinguishing the light; it is putting out the lamp because dawn has come. says:
and there is no god
Komencanto (African AIDS victims proud to give their lives for intellectual property laws) says:
where did u hear/read about it?
Komencanto (African AIDS victims proud to give their lives for intellectual property laws) says:
you will have to become a vegetarian like me =D
well, won´t have to, but should
Death is not extinguishing the light; it is putting out the lamp because dawn has come. says:
i went to http://www.buddhanet.net/Komencanto (African AIDS victims proud to give their lives for intellectual property laws) says:
well, i´ve got something better: http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/syws/buddhism/buddhism.html
check that out and you ahve it summed up
Death is not extinguishing the light; it is putting out the lamp because dawn has come. says:
nah, there there a few things i dont want to do
Komencanto (African AIDS victims proud to give their lives for intellectual property laws) says:
ahahaha, so you´re a buddhist until it no longer suits you
Death is not extinguishing the light; it is putting out the lamp because dawn has come. says:
i just like their way of thinking i decided
Death is not extinguishing the light; it is putting out the lamp because dawn has come. says:
no
just two things
there is the 8 fold path rule of not hurting other livings things
Komencanto (African AIDS victims proud to give their lives for intellectual property laws) says:
i am aquainted with the 8 fold path
Death is not extinguishing the light; it is putting out the lamp because dawn has come. says:
and you not meant to overindulge in sexual pleasure
Komencanto (African AIDS victims proud to give their lives for intellectual property laws) says:
who said that?
Death is not extinguishing the light; it is putting out the lamp because dawn has come. says:
thats in something or other
in the 5 precepts
Death is not extinguishing the light; it is putting out the lamp because dawn has come. says:
What are the 5 Precepts?
The moral code within Buddhism is the precepts, of which the main five are: not to take the life of anything living, not to take anything not freely given, to abstain from sexual misconduct and sensual overindulgence, to refrain from untrue speech, and to avoid intoxication, that is, losing mindfulness.
Komencanto (African AIDS victims proud to give their lives for intellectual property laws) says:
ah, ok
Death is not extinguishing the light; it is putting out the lamp because dawn has come. says:
anyway, who says you have to follow everything
budda once said
Buddha asked all his followers not to take his word as true, but rather to test the teachings for themselves
Death is not extinguishing the light; it is putting out the lamp because dawn has come. says:
Komencanto (African AIDS victims proud to give their lives for intellectual property laws) says:
well.... depends how you interpret it
Death is not extinguishing the light; it is putting out the lamp because dawn has come. says:
yeah, there is OVERindulgence
u depend what is OVER
Komencanto (African AIDS victims proud to give their lives for intellectual property laws) says:
hold on dude, different groups take the rules differently:
Don't kill - man or beast
Don't steal
Don't lie
Don't cheat on your loved one
Don't take drugs or drink booze
Komencanto (African AIDS victims proud to give their lives for intellectual property laws) says:
thats one way of taking them
Death is not extinguishing the light; it is putting out the lamp because dawn has come. says:
Death is not extinguishing the light; it is putting out the lamp because dawn has come. says:
hey bro
i'm just going with the site
i'm gonna read what they have to say
i aint gonna act as if i know everything to do with it
Komencanto (African AIDS victims proud to give their lives for intellectual property laws) says:
do as you wish
Death is not extinguishing the light; it is putting out the lamp because dawn has come. says:
cos i know sh** all
just what i've read
and i'm gonna treat it the way i want to
Komencanto (African AIDS victims proud to give their lives for intellectual property laws) says:
sure, but i´m saying that i never read anything about sexual overindulgence before in buddhism
Death is not extinguishing the light; it is putting out the lamp because dawn has come. says:
and if i wanna jack off and drink booze and take drugs and eat meat i shal
but i can still believe a majority of what they believe
Komencanto (African AIDS victims proud to give their lives for intellectual property laws) says:
believe but not act on it
ahaha, like I said, a buddhist of convenience
 
Didn´t Bhudda preach that there was no god and that man was his own master?
Then again, that wouldn´t sit well with the masses so it´s no surprise a lot of Buddhist groups invented supernatural things to make it popular. =/

No, Buddha taught that everyone had their own idea of the nature of Gods and the afterlife, and focusing on that would only led to endless arguing and distract people from dealing with the real problem: the elimination of suffering in this life. As Buddhism spread, it did pick up the local religious beliefs and even the monks wrote about Gods, Heavens, and the many levels of Hell. As with any religion, there are those who take this literally, and those who see the concepts as handy metaphors.
 
I am a bit surprised how many people know what Buddha has said (that means, the historical Siddhartha "The Buddha" Gotama). I read the Dīghanikāyo and the Majjhimanikāyo of the Pāli Collections (in the translation of Karl Eugen Neumann), and as I understand it, those are the earliest writings we have, but they are still far away from the lifetime of the Buddha.

In these books, the Buddha describes the recollection of earlier reincarnation as one step of enlightment (many, many locations: "you will remember one earlier life, five earlier lifes, hundred earlier lifes", and so on). Also, there is a longer dispute about the view that nobody will receive punishment after his death, and that view is refutated. So if you tell me that the canonical view of Buddhism is that there is no reincarnation of any kind, I don't buy it.

Anyway, if death is the end, why should I bother to become a monk or a nun? A more obvious solution would be to have a few years of fun. Note that there are several reports in the Pāli Collections of monks killing themself after they became incurable ill.

There are many locations in the Pāli Collections where the Buddha refuses to talk about metaphysical subjects. But I still think that Buddhism is some kind of metaphysical theory.
 
Uh, I forgot: and on several occasions, the Pāli Canon mentions five possible outcomes: to be born again in hell, as an animal, as a ghost, as a human, or as a god. So unless you have some genuine knowledge what the real Buddha was teaching, I would say he wasn't a strict materialist.

On the other hand, the Pāli-Canon-Buddha strictly denies the existence of a self. This it what puzzles me: it seems to be so obviously self-contradictory that I am certain I missed something.
 
One of the confusing aspects to Westerners about Buddhism is that, unlike the other religions like Christianity, Buddhism does not have a closed canon. It's generally agreed among scholars that the first sutras were first written down about 100 years after his death. The basic teaching, the Four Noble truths and Eightfold Path, are considered to be an accurate recording of his core teaching. There are some other discourses and parables that ring true, but since then there have been thousands of sutras (scriptures) written by the monks down through the centuries. But no, there is no way of verifying the actual words of the founder of this religion.

The monks over the centuries did the usual writing sutras and putting words into the Buddha's mouth, and that led to the usual contradictions and confusions. If there is no "self", then what difference does it make if there's one or a dozen levels of Hell? Is Nirvana extinguishing of passions or an actual destination? Well, different monks had different understandings, and taught different things. But fortunately, Buddhism is built on the belief that people should examine the sutras for themselves, come to their own conclusions, and discard what isn't relevant or seems dated or wrong. What other religion can make that claim? The great Masters, in fact, often openly disagree with each other even today, and they're all considered valid viewpoints. The sutras are revered and considered "sacred" because of what they are; the inspired writings of people who've dedicated their life to the Eightfold Path, not the "revealed Truth" handed down by God.

It is a religion designed for skeptics. The Buddha's teachings must, before anything else, make sense to you. Nothing must be taken on faith or because some monk said that's the way it is.
 
I concede that some Buddhist sects are more liberal and peaceful than some Monotheist sects, and that there are different flavours of Buddhism. But I am not interested in designing my own "Jan's Purely Original Buddhist Strawman Cult", although I could, and although it seems that I am allowed to. All I am asking is: does anybody know at least one version of Buddhism being consistent?

Or to be more specific: does anybody has a consistent interpretation of the Pāli Canon?
 
Originally posted by jan

On the other hand, the Pāli-Canon-Buddha strictly denies the existence of a self. This it what puzzles me: it seems to be so obviously self-contradictory that I am certain I missed something.
Click to expand...
If it seems self-contradictory to you, then I will suggest that you have grasped the essence of it. It is meant to be contradictory. It is a method of teaching rather than a doctrine of truth. The truth of the teaching remains unsaid for the simple reason that the truth cannot be put into words. It is for each person to arrive at the truth through constant pondering of the contradictions until one realizes the futility of trying to figure it out intellectually. At this point, something happens to one's understanding and he experiences the feeling of "Ah. So that's what it's all about!"

The Japanese word for this is 'satori' or 'enlightenment'. It's kind of like 'getting' a joke. Either you get it or you don't. This is the purpose of the Koan as practiced by Rinzai Zen students. Most people have heard the famous Koan "What is the sound of one hand clapping".

The essence of Buddhism is simple. Realization of the true nature of everything. The practice of Buddhism is simply the method used to acheive this realization.

This is my understanding based on having lived in a Buddhist monastery for two years. I could be wrong. I often am. you know?

Dai Bosatsu Zen Monastery
 
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