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What freedoms would we lose under UHC?

skeptical

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skeptical
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I keep hearing people frothing about how UHC would take away "our freedom" and how Obama and the Democrats want UHC so that they can "restrict our freedoms", and on and on and so forth.

But what freedom exactly is it that people are talking about? I've been in the workforce for 17 years and not once have I been able to choose who my provider is. My choice is between the company plan and paying my own way. Some employers give you a little money if you don't take their plan, but IME its a pittance compared to what the employer pays on your behalf for their plan. So, no real choice, I go with the company plan. I've had 4 or 5 differernt HMO's and they all pretty much cover the same things and have roughly the same deductibles, so its a false choice anyway.

So, is it my freedom to NOT have health insurance that is at stake here? Is that what all this is about? Are people honestly trying to complain that they will be _forced_ to have health insurance? WTF?

I must be dense because I just don't get it. I don't see what freedoms are at stake.
 
The freedom to let those who "don't derserve it" die from lack of care.
 
And remember, in the UK there's still a private system so in fact you can have both running in parallel!
 
The freedom to die or otherwise be mentally, financially and/or physically debilitated by easily preventable illnesses.
 
Ahem! <cough>

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149823&highlight=essentials

And that isn't the first thread we've had on this either. I'm not suggesting we merge, but just indicating that we keep asking this question and none of those who made the original claim ever seem to come and explain what they mean.

In a much earlier thread, while debating with Jerome, I think, I listed a fairly impressive string of freedoms that we have due to having universal healthcare, which US citizens do not have. I think it started with the freedon to change jobs at will, without even thinking about how this might affect one's healthcare provision.

I also tried to come up with a list of freedoms enjoyed by US citizens relating to their healthcare. It wasn't very long, and in fact several of them were things claimed as freedoms by anti-universal-healthcare posters which it turned out they didn't actually enjoy (like the freedom not to be forced to pay for the healthcare of other people). The rest were freedoms we also enjoy under the NHS.

I think it's just dishonest rhetoric that doesn't stand up to a minute's scrutiny. It would be good if some of the people propounding the idea came and explained what they mean though.

Rolfe.
 
skeptical said:
I keep hearing people frothing about how UHC would take away "our freedom" and how Obama and the Democrats want UHC so that they can "restrict our freedoms", and on and on and so forth.
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the freedom of bankruptcy and death if you get sick of course. You get sick and lose your job becuase they don't want you increasing the premiums of everyone so they use the time you miss and the reason to fire you. You lose your coverage and can't afford your meds and die.

Simple basic freedoms those are.
 
The Freedom to pay the insurance companies more than they need, so THEY can have that beach house, not you.

The Freedom to allow a pencil pushing nobody to decide which test is "appropriate" for your doctor to order (oh but wait, they will tell the doctor that they are not telling him or her what to order, just whether or not THEY will pay for it).

The Freedom to choose between 3-4 different insurance companies, who like gas stations/companies, essentially fix prices so you pay just about the same amount no matter which company you CHOOSE.

TAM:)
 
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you gain freedom, you will have the freedom to get medical care, also when you are jobless and poor.
 
In my opinion, it's not about freedoms, it's about fear. Obama is proposing a radical change to American health care and that just scares the heck out of most Americans, especially senior citizens, who are a very powerful lobby in the United States.

Let's assume that the highest number is correct, that 40 million people in the United States are without any health insurance. Let's also assume, for arguments sake, that another 60 million are underinsured or have crappy plans that don't cover pre-existing conditions. That means that at least 2/3's of the country, a vast majority, are doing fine health care wise.

I'm not suggesting that we just leave up to 100 million people with little or no access to affordable health care. However, since the anti health care reform people are in the majority they have the loudest voice when it comes to fear mongering such as "lose of freedom" and "death panels".

What Obama and the democrats don't see seems obvious to me: The majority of Americans don't want health care reform.
 
Why not? I take your point about fear since change is often scary and in this case there is a lot of money and vested interest in trying to make sure people are anxious about what it will mean for them

Nevertheless it seems to me that many of the people who you say are "doing fine health care wise" are not in fact doing fine: they just don't know that till they have to try to use it. That seems to be what I have learned from some of the members here anyway.

Even if the worst does not happen health care is apparently a source of anxiety to most americans and it affects a lot of unrelated decisions like employment and where to live and so on.

In any case the " I'm all right Jack" attitude is not something I admire, and to be honest I think it should only influence our views so long as we are genuinely ignorant of the fact that other people are not "all right": and this is what Sugarb described elsewhere when her previous view that everyone had at least adequate basic care turned out to be wrong. As I would expect from any decent person that changed her mind.

I honestly can't see any downside to reform and a lot of advantages. It is not my country and of course it is up to yourselves. I would like to think that whatever happens it is based on real considerations and not a monster in the attic, however
 
Alt+F4 said:
In my opinion, it's not about freedoms, it's about fear. Obama is proposing a radical change to American health care and that just scares the heck out of most Americans, especially senior citizens, who are a very powerful lobby in the United States.
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I have to wonder how much of that is genuine fear and how much of it has been artificially generated by right wing media and various publicity stunts. I know some very intelligent people who have been completely flimflammed by the utter BS coming from the right.


Alt+F4 said:
However, since the anti health care reform people are in the majority they have the loudest voice when it comes to fear mongering such as "lose of freedom" and "death panels".

What Obama and the democrats don't see seems obvious to me: The majority of Americans don't want health care reform.
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I just don't think that's true. I think you have a very vocal minority playing dirty tricks to convince the rest and, to an extent, they are succeeding.
 
Alt+F4 said:
In my opinion, it's not about freedoms, it's about fear. Obama is proposing a radical change to American health care and that just scares the heck out of most Americans, especially senior citizens, who are a very powerful lobby in the United States.

Let's assume that the highest number is correct, that 40 million people in the United States are without any health insurance. Let's also assume, for arguments sake, that another 60 million are underinsured or have crappy plans that don't cover pre-existing conditions. That means that at least 2/3's of the country, a vast majority, are doing fine health care wise.
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As long as they don't get too sick. Then bankruptcy is in their future.
 
Have there been any polls on the issue which show what % of the population are in favour of having some sort of UHC and what % are against it? Anyone got any links?
 
Professor Yaffle said:
Have there been any polls on the issue which show what % of the population are in favour of having some sort of UHC and what % are against it? Anyone got any links?
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Looking at this poll it seems that disinformation is doing a good job of confusing the american public.
 
Professor Yaffle said:
Have there been any polls on the issue which show what % of the population are in favour of having some sort of UHC and what % are against it? Anyone got any links?
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Found this from July, which shows that the majority is now against health care reform (note the strong Republican opinion). However, this shows that Republicans and Fox News viewers are generally the most misinformed about it.
 
Professor Yaffle said:
Have there been any polls on the issue which show what % of the population are in favour of having some sort of UHC and what % are against it? Anyone got any links?
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Does that matter if so much misinformation and lies is becoming "common knowledge" and the average american associates UHC with breadlines, grandma being rejected care, and commies stealing your babies?
 
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