WHAT "Developments From The Vatican"?

[Brown]

It is amazing that television (e.g., CNN) and radio (e.g., public radio) still use terms like "developments from the Vatican" or "breaking news from the Vatican" and the like. WHAT developments? WHAT breaking news?

The pope is still dead, isn't he?

Weren't the post-death procedures mostly worked out in advance of his death? Wasn't the procedure for succession being described even before his passing? Isn't canonization years off?

The death of the pope is a big story, yes; but it hardly has the sort of rapid development of events that justifies announcements that regular reporting will be interrupted to bring the listener the most current news from the Vatican.

It also seems that one of the big "stories" of the past few days is that people have been praying for the pope. By what standard is that news?? Catholics pray for the pope routinely, even when he is in the best of health. When President Bush announces that he is praying for something, this is the equivalent of saying that he is doing nothing, except "making a wish."

To the extent that the prayers were for his recovery, such efforts were futile. To the extent that the prayers were for the passage of his immortal soul into heaven, those prayers are futile, too, aren't they? Once the pope passes, his "die is cast," so to speak, and if the Almighty deems him unsuited to enter the kingdom of heaven, then the prayers of those who did not know the man could hardly be given any weight. Isn't the real "news" here that millions of people are engaging in a completely futile activity, even measured by their own standards of theology?

 

[Lisa Simpson]

Maybe they are waiting for him to rise. Has it been three days?

 

[Cleon]

THIS JUST IN!!!!!!!


The Pope is still dead. We will be monitoring the news from the Vatican in case there's any change in his condition.

 

[richardm]

THIS JUST IN!!!!!!!


The Pope is still dead. We will be monitoring the news from the Vatican in case there's any change in his condition.

The Pope's dead? They certainly kept that quiet.

On a related note, you'll have seen the Pope lying in state, with the little block under his heels to stop him sliding off the plinth.

I wonder who discovered that that little block was necessary?

 

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by Brown:
Once the pope passes, his "die is cast," so to speak, and if the Almighty deems him unsuited to enter the kingdom of heaven, then the prayers of those who did not know the man could hardly be given any weight.

However he might enter that halfway house known as purgatory, in which case prayer will be required to persuade the Almighty to allow him enter the kingdom of heaven. The people doing the praying would be horrifed to hear you say this, though.

 

[Brown]

However he might enter that halfway house known as purgatory, in which case prayer will be required to persuade the Almighty to allow him enter the kingdom of heaven. The people doing the praying would be horrifed to hear you say this, though.

I have to admit that I am not fully versed on the Catholic view of purgatory. From what I understand, however, the kingdom of heaven does not issue press releases pertaining to the destination of those deceased (i.e., whether the departed entered heaven, hell, purgatory or wherever), nor does the kingdom issue any advisory as to whether a soul in purgatory has been released.

These were rather sore points with Martin Luther, who was unhappy with the Church using the concept of purgatory as a fundraising tool. The notion was that, if you make a donation to the church, the church will release one of your loved ones from purgatory. Luther asked a couple of key questions, for which he never received satisfactory answers: (1) If we pray for a soul to be freed from purgatory, how can we know whether this result has actually been accomplished? (2) If the pope has the power to release souls from suffering in purgatory, why doesn't he simply do it and empty out the place?

Luther made the dreadful mistake of trying to apply logic to conventional religious doctrine. He compounded his error by failing to apply the same logic to the doctrine he himself urged (which led to the Reformation). In other words, applying logic to dogma is presumptively futile to begin with, and applying logic in a selective or half-assed manner is guaranteed to produce illogical results.

 

[Calee]

The Pope's dead? They certainly kept that quiet.

On a related note, you'll have seen the Pope lying in state, with the little block under his heels to stop him sliding off the plinth.

I wonder who discovered that that little block was necessary?

All I know is that they are leaving him laying around until Friday.

I hope that they pop him in the fridge at night.

 

[Rolfe]

However he might enter that halfway house known as purgatory, in which case prayer will be required to persuade the Almighty to allow him enter the kingdom of heaven. The people doing the praying would be horrifed to hear you say this, though.

As I understand it, this is a big difference between Catholic and Protestant theology. We don't pray for the dead, because we believe that "the die is cast", as Brown said. Catholics do, because of all this stuff about purgatory, most of which I don't understand. (Or rather, I don't understand where they got it from.)

Actually, someone posted something terribly sensible on another thread about the nature of time, and its not being linear or two-dimensional outside this universe. (I think it was something he'd heard from a Jesuit, who didn't want to be quoted on it. News flash, it's pretty standard thinking in Protestant theology.) So, it is quite possible for both "ye shall be changed .... at the last trumpet" and "today you shall be with me in paradise" to be correct.

So, not a simple concept, but really, if any of the Catholics seriously think there's any need to pray for the Pope's soul, excuse me, what do they know that they're not telling us? Personally, I think it's just a pious ritual.

Rolfe.

 

[UserGoogol]

Not having been religious I wouldn't know, but I have been told that there is sort of a "chatty" sort of prayer which has been known to occur. You know, something like "Hey God, just wanted to check in and make sure that Karol was okay. Yeah, you know he left the mortal realm a few days ago and uh, I guess I wanted to just sorta check in and uh, just say Hi I guess and just say we all really miss him and uh, hope he's having fun in your awesome beauty. Uh, so okay, bye." You know, just banter.

Regarding the news, newscasters are idiots and use phrases like "breaking news" fairly idiomatically without really thinking about the literal meaning of the phrases.

 

[Rolfe]

I hope that they pop him in the fridge at night.

The news report I heard said that the body had been embalmed.

Rolfe.

 

[TragicMonkey]

So, not a simple concept, but really, if any of the Catholics seriously think there's any need to pray for the Pope's soul, excuse me, what do they know that they're not telling us? Personally, I think it's just a pious ritual.

I've always supposed praying for the dead actually helped the living ease their grief a bit, and let them imagine they're still in contact somehow. At least it shows you're remembered.

 

[TragicMonkey]

The thing that makes me mad is that in all this TV and news coverage they're acting like this is a unique situation. It's not. It's happened hundreds of times, to every pope ever. Are people really so ignorant of Catholicism that they think the mechanism for succession is new? Or untried? That people are running around the Vatican going "Oh my! We never saw this coming! What will we do?" The Church is an institution, a particularly long-lived one, and every is proceeding in proper, predictable order.

 

[Darat]

Going back to the “what news” idea in the OP.

Today in the UK there has just been a decision from a judge declaring that a recent local election result is void because electoral fraud had taken place.

This fraud was because of a new system of postal ballets that had been introduced; a system that will also be used in the next General Election.

The judge has said:

""The system is wide open to fraud and any would-be political fraudster knows that,"

" "hopelessly insecure""

"Anybody who has sat through the case I have just tried and listened to evidence of electoral fraud that would disgrace a banana republic would find this statement surprising."

(All from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/4406575.stm)

So here we are with a potentially destabilising flaw in our voting system (postal votes could alter the outcome of the next General Election) and what gets wall to wall coverage, the Pope not moving! (Of and that an adulterous, inbreed dolt has postponed his, probably not valid, marriage. As a total aside I'd like the RC to say on Friday to Prince Charles 'Sorry adulterers aren’t welcome. - Especially ones that are living in sin." )

It is so very reassuring knowing that our media concentrates on issues that could really serious affect everyone in the UK...

 

[kalen]

Can't wait for the made-for-TV movie on his life. I wonder who they will get to play JP2.

 

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by Brown:
I have to admit that I am not fully versed on the Catholic view of purgatory. From what I understand, however, the kingdom of heaven does not issue press releases pertaining to the destination of those deceased (i.e., whether the departed entered heaven, hell, purgatory or wherever), nor does the kingdom issue any advisory as to whether a soul in purgatory has been released.

The plenary indulgence (for that is the technical term) is still very much part of Catholicism, although nowadays you pray, rather than pay for them. The kingdom of heaven does not issue press releases or social columns detailing the promotion of worthy souls. Catholics are supposed to take this, and much else, on faith.

Originally posted by Rolfe:
As I understand it, this is a big difference between Catholic and Protestant theology. We don't pray for the dead, because we believe that "the die is cast", as Brown said. Catholics do, because of all this stuff about purgatory, most of which I don't understand. (Or rather, I don't understand where they got it from.)

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't Presbyterians believe that the die is cast at birth, predestination of souls being a central tenet of that branch of Protestantism?

 

[Cleon]

Can't wait for the made-for-TV movie on his life. I wonder who they will get to play JP2.

I was wondering about that; an old Leslie Nielsen movie came to mind, Repossessed (it's an Exorcist spoof). There's a brief scene where an actor playing the Pope appears; and he's tha spitting image of JPII.

After a brief consultation with IMDB, it looks like this guy's made a career out of JPII impersonation:

http://imdb.com/name/nm0340745/


Edited to add: Looks like the guy's got a website at http://www.pope2.com/

 

[Regnad Kcin]

I was wondering about that; an old Leslie Nielsen movie came to mind, Repossessed (it's an Exorcist spoof). There's a brief scene where an actor playing the Pope appears; and he's tha spitting image of JPII.

Really? I don't find he looks like JPII much at all. At least not based on the two photos on his site.

Still, if the cardinals were to select a lookalike as the next pontiff, think of the savings in souvenirs alone!

 

[jj]

Does anyone know how many Opus Dei Cardinals JPii promoted, and how much more "conservative" the next pope will be?

This one was bad enough.

 

[geni]

Does anyone know how many Opus Dei Cardinals JPii promoted, and how much more "conservative" the next pope will be?This one was bad enough.

There is one cardinal who is an opus dei memeber (Juan Luis Cipriani Thorne) out of 117 who can vote on the next pope.

Predicting the politics of the catholic church is difficult at the best of times.

 

[Darat]

Does anyone know how many Opus Dei Cardinals JPii promoted, and how much more "conservative" the next pope will be?

This one was bad enough.

Most of the Cardinals are JP appointments.