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What are we REALLY fighting against?

FactCheck

Muse
FactCheck
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
619
It's been said that truthers are mentally ill. I disagree.

I suspect some of the people here have also debated evolution/creation. I myself started an evolution/creation website about 10 years ago. The over whelming evidence is we evolved. That said, if you agree we evolved, regardless of your belief in god, you would agree we are animals with animal instincts. These instincts are honed over billions of years of evolution and are seamless in our lives.

One of the strongest instincts is the instinct to group and protect our group. We see this played out every day. In the workforce we form management groups and worker groups. We root for one group in sports and vote for one group in politics.

Stanly Kubrick captured our instincts and how they helped us to survive in his movie "2001: A Space Odyssey" We are still that group of monkeys in the beginning of his film fighting over that water hole.

What does this have to do with 911? I believe everything.

The alphas of one group (Alex Jones and the other alphas) are manipulating their followers into thinking the other group (The government) is taking away the water hole (Your rights/freedoms/whatever).

This explains "Group think" and "Cognitive dissonance". It's an instinct we have which may have helped our groups stay together and fight other groups. We may have developed compartments in our brain which filter anything which goes against our group. We are also easily receptive to any nonsense our alpha tells us. It keeps us together. A perfect example is how the truther in Gravy's video kept saying "How did the steel melt" when Gravy had told him over and over again that the NIST never said the steel melted. "Get it out your head!" That may be easier said than done. He may have well said "Get billions of years of evolution out your head." (BTW, Gravy, please read your PM.)

People who know evolutionary psychology may know what I'm talking about.

If this is what we are up against, how to we fight it? Your thoughts?

__________________

! = to emphasise a point
!! = to indicate extreme emotion
!!! = slightly bonkers
!!!! = mad as a loon
!!!!! = Killtown

"Now there's a man with an open mind - you can feel the breeze from here!" - Groucho Marks

"The A.D.L. is the scum of the earth."... "You aren't going to use that last line out of context, are you?" - Alex Jones
 
FactCheck said:
It's been said that truthers are mentally ill. I disagree.

I suspect some of the people here have also debated evolution/creation. I myself started an evolution/creation website about 10 years ago. The over whelming evidence is we evolved. That said, if you agree we evolved, regardless of your belief in god, you would agree we are animals with animal instincts. These instincts are honed over billions of years of evolution and are seamless in our lives.

One of the strongest instincts is the instinct to group and protect our group. We see this played out every day. In the workforce we form management groups and worker groups. We root for one group in sports and vote for one group in politics.

Stanly Kubrick captured our instincts and how they helped us to survive in his movie "2001: A Space Odyssey" We are still that group of monkeys in the beginning of his film fighting over that water hole.

What does this have to do with 911? I believe everything.

The alphas of one group (Alex Jones and the other alphas) are manipulating their followers into thinking the other group (The government) is taking away the water hole (Your rights/freedoms/whatever).

This explains "Group think" and "Cognitive dissonance". It's an instinct we have which may have helped our groups stay together and fight other groups. We may have developed compartments in our brain which filter anything which goes against our group. We are also easily receptive to any nonsense our alpha tells us. It keeps us together. A perfect example is how the truther in Gravy's video kept saying "How did the steel melt" when Gravy had told him over and over again that the NIST never said the steel melted. "Get it out your head!" That may be easier said than done. He may have well said "Get billions of years of evolution out your head." (BTW, Gravy, please read your PM.)

People who know evolutionary psychology may know what I'm talking about.

If this is what we are up against, how to we fight it? Your thoughts?

__________________

! = to emphasise a point
!! = to indicate extreme emotion
!!! = slightly bonkers
!!!! = mad as a loon
!!!!! = Killtown

"Now there's a man with an open mind - you can feel the breeze from here!" - Groucho Marks

"The A.D.L. is the scum of the earth."... "You aren't going to use that last line out of context, are you?" - Alex Jones
Click to expand...


Interesting post, and I agree with it 100%. It is the reason that I gave up trying to convince the truthers about 2 months into this thing.

I now debate not to convince them, but to show the fence sitters which of the two arguments is more logical, more reasonable, more based in fact and evidence...let them see how foolish the truther claims are...

TAM:)
 
I don't see the need to do much that's different. I don't have illusions about changing the minds of many true believers, but I will engage them if I think the discussion will be instructive to others. Many people hear the truther ideas and don't know how much is true, and don't have a lot of time to look into them.

Most 9/11 deniers will eventually realize that they're relegated to a little kooky corner, that they do not in fact have the support of the majority, and that their methods have utterly failed to produce results that confirm their claims. By a strange coincidence, this will happen around the time that Dick Cheney gets a new job.
 
Gravy said:
I don't see the need to do much that's different. I don't have illusions about changing the minds of many true believers, but I will engage them if I think the discussion will be instructive to others.
Click to expand...

Yup, skepticism is a process and not an outcome.
 
A very interesting post.

I did want to add something that I have noticed in my own life. I have noticed that one of the hardest things for people to do is admit they are wrong. Rationalization is a very strong human drive. I suspect alot of these guys know they are wrong deep down, but just can't swallow their pride enough to fully give in to it.

It's my opinion that being able to admit when you are wrong, and learn from it, humbly, is one of the stronger signs of maturity.
 
Whiplash said:
A very interesting post.

I did want to add something that I have noticed in my own life. I have noticed that one of the hardest things for people to do is admit they are wrong. Rationalization is a very strong human drive. I suspect a lot of these guys know they are wrong deep down, but just can't swallow their pride enough to fully give in to it.

It's my opinion that being able to admit when you are wrong, and learn from it, humbly, is one of the stronger signs of maturity.
Click to expand...

Good point. I can also link this to evolution. Most people have a strong instinct to become the alpha themselves. If you are wrong then someone has sort of beaten you. You are no longer the alpha in that debate. This goes to the hart of why people want big cars, guns and other symbols of status/alpha. Being wrong = losing the fight = not being the alpha. We fight our instincts when we admit we're wrong. I fight that instinct by thinking that I'm alpha/man enough to admit I'm wrong.
__________________

! = to emphasise a point
!! = to indicate extreme emotion
!!! = slightly bonkers
!!!! = mad as a loon
!!!!! = Killtown

"Now there's a man with an open mind - you can feel the breeze from here!" - Groucho Marks

"The A.D.L. is the scum of the earth."... "You aren't going to use that last line out of context, are you?" - Alex Jones
 
FactCheck said:
Good point. I can also link this to evolution. Most people have a strong instinct to become the alpha themselves. If you are wrong then someone has sort of beaten you. You are no longer the alpha in that debate. This goes to the hart of why people want big cars, guns and other symbols of status/alpha. Being wrong = losing the fight = not being the alpha. We fight our instincts when we admit we're wrong. I fight that instinct by thinking that I'm alpha/man enough to admit I'm wrong.
__________________

! = to emphasise a point
!! = to indicate extreme emotion
!!! = slightly bonkers
!!!! = mad as a loon
!!!!! = Killtown

"Now there's a man with an open mind - you can feel the breeze from here!" - Groucho Marks

"The A.D.L. is the scum of the earth."... "You aren't going to use that last line out of context, are you?" - Alex Jones
Click to expand...

Go on then!!!!!!
 
chipmunk stew said:
Where does that put scooby?
Click to expand...

He has fallen over the edge of his self-induced flat earth...


Edited to add:
We are fighting ignorance. Not the Twoofers themselves, but by putting facts and the scientific method out there, we fight for those who have the capacity to understand.
You cannot fight stupid. IT is forever, and to the bone.
 
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Oh yeah, "Group think" is a plague of our times. Listen to what John McMurtry has to say:

Guns and Butter
Wednesday, March 21st, 2007

"Why the Facts of 9/11 Must Be Suppressed: Understanding the Ruling Group Mind Behind the War Without End"

With Dr. John McMurtry, Professor of Philosophy at the University of Guelph, Ontario in a presentation at the International Citizens Inquiry Into 9/11 on May 30, 2004 in Toronto. McMurtry was one of the first academics to analyze 9/11 and the 9/11 wars. In response to the extreme pressure of forcing reality to conform to manufactured delusions, the group and its members become increasingly submerged within a pre-conscious field of hysteria, denials and projections. Their program is being played out in Iraq against heroic resistance, while elsewhere in the empire the "regulating group mind" demands complicity with its fundamental assumption - that 9/11 was an attack from the outside.

Download (60min, .mp3, 10 Mb)
 
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Childlike Empress said:
Oh yeah, "Group think" is a plague of our times. Listen to what John McMurtry has to say:

Guns and Butter
Wednesday, March 21st, 2007

"Why the Facts of 9/11 Must Be Suppressed: Understanding the Ruling Group Mind Behind the War Without End"

With Dr. John McMurtry, Professor of Philosophy at the University of Guelph, Ontario in a presentation at the International Citizens Inquiry Into 9/11 on May 30, 2004 in Toronto. McMurtry was one of the first academics to analyze 9/11 and the 9/11 wars. In response to the extreme pressure of forcing reality to conform to manufactured delusions, the group and its members become increasingly submerged within a pre-conscious field of hysteria, denials and projections. Their program is being played out in Iraq against heroic resistance, while elsewhere in the empire the "regulating group mind" demands complicity with its fundamental assumption - that 9/11 was an attack from the outside.

Download (60min, .mp3, 10 Mb)
Click to expand...
Thanks, Empress. That's Stundilicious:
"elsewhere in the empire the "regulating group mind" demands complicity with its fundamental assumption - that 9/11 was an attack from the outside."
 
<slight derail> fact - why are you manually inserting a signature? </derail>
 
But leave him alone - looking back on his post, he's got a hell of a fight on his hands.
 
This is another good point, and probably a strong contributing factor for most of the CTers.

But, perhaps the mentally ill are more likely to fall sway to the groupthink mentality?

Either way, "group think, and the instinct to be the Alpha" are not mutually exclusive to illness. One could be both ill and susceptible to those mentalities, or just ill, or just susceptible, or (in some cases) neither; in order to be part of the CT group.
 
FactCheck said:
Good point. I can also link this to evolution. Most people have a strong instinct to become the alpha themselves. If you are wrong then someone has sort of beaten you. You are no longer the alpha in that debate. This goes to the hart of why people want big cars, guns and other symbols of status/alpha. Being wrong = losing the fight = not being the alpha. We fight our instincts when we admit we're wrong. I fight that instinct by thinking that I'm alpha/man enough to admit I'm wrong.
Click to expand...

Wowbagger...I think the alpha theory, as Fact has stated, is an evolution or human nature one...

TAM:)
 
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