Were werewolves and vampires actually serial killers?

Cainkane1

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I think the answer is yes. I read about were wolves on wikipedia that some of the acts attributed to these mythical creature were often committed by human serial killers. Do the legends of these creatures actually indicate this?
 
Werewolves, yes, probably.

Vampires were usually a type of ghost, their "murders" usually happened after death, so more likely a way to explain contagious disease and coincidences.
 
Good grief! Since neither of those ever existed, guess what the answer would be?

(Although that OP explains a lot)
 
It's an interesting question, particularly for someone like myself who writes (as yet unpublished) vampire/werewolf fiction. Beyond a lifelong interest in the subject, I've been researching it for the last six months, and I've observed a number of facts -- or myths stated as facts -- which might support the idea proposed by the OP.

There are medieval woodcuts (German, I think) supposedly depicting werewolves, but which show instead disheveled human beings, crouching down on all fours and with all their clothes intact except their shoes. This would appear to lend credence to the werewolves = homicidal maniacs interpretation.

Also, one way in which it was believed a man might become a werewolf was to wear a wolfskin, or even a belt made of wolfskin. A human being running around on all fours, murdering children and devouring the dead (as werewolves were said to do) while wearing wolfskins might indeed be mistaken for a wolf-man amalgamation. The superstition might have arisen around a central actual event, or series of events, such as this in ancient times.

In more recent times, Bram Stoker began assembling his notes and research for his novel Dracula in 1890 -- just two years after the series of horrendous murders in London's Whitechapel district shocked the nation. Indeed, one of the "hideouts" which Dracula kept in London in the novel, mentioned in Chapter 20, is located less than six blocks from the sites of all the murders. It is possible -- if in no way provable -- that Stoker was moved to bring his vampire invader to England and London by the murderous, if brief, career of Jack the Ripper.

In support of that contention, there was an anonymous letter in the Oct 6 1888 East London Advertiser, which Stoker might well have read (or even written!), as he lived in London:

"It is so impossible to account, on any ordinary hypothesis, for these revolting acts if blood that the mind turns as it were instinctively to some theory of occult force, and myths of the Dark Ages arise before the imagination. Ghouls, vampires, blood-suckers... take form and seize control of the excited fancy... [W]hat can be more appalling than the thought that there is a human being stealthily moving about a great city, burning with the thirst for human blood?"​

If Stoker was moved to invent the world's most famous vampire by the activities of the world's most famous (unsolved) serial killer, then it seems plausible that a similar, more credulous and superstitious form of storytelling -- namely, the folk tale -- sprang from a similar source in a prior age.
 
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I can't think of any other way that the Lunatic connection can have made it into werewolf lore unless via a connection with a cyclic mood disorder such as bipolar disorder or cyclothymia. Can you ?

although there may be obvious connections with this its still the wrong way round for a myth which usually starts with something evidencially factual and then attains other connections along the way,

I would expect though that the original claims for the existence of Vampires and werewolves would be the result of the murderous actions of various warrior tribal groups in the ancient world who were compared with animals and undead monsters.
Try these for a vampire connection, troops who cannot die
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immortals_(Persian_Empire)

Two more recent good examples of this are found with the Norse, in Odins Úlfhéðnar (wolf skin warriors) and viking Berserkers (Bear shirt warriors) who were both believed to be able to transform into an animal in the heat of battle.

Theres a bit of a clue to this in Dracula, where the man himself refers to the Norse Berserkers as werewolves
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...&resnum=7&ved=0CDUQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false

As for vampires, the same could easily be true, if you came across a battle and saw the usual pallor of the dead it wouldn't be long before villages nearby would be telling stories of dead bodies drained of blood and of corpses wandering the earth because they didn't receive the correct burial rites. There may also be something to this as how often is it that the head vampire always turns out to be from an ancient warrior race, even in modern media.

so imo, hominoidal monster myths dont start because one man has done something murderous, they start because a group of people have done something murderous, making them notable enough for comparisons with later unconnected events to be drawn.

If Stoker was moved to invent the world's most famous vampire by the activities of the world's most famous (unsolved) serial killer,
Stoker was inspired to write about Dracula/Vlad by a 15th C pamphlet entitled "the land beyond the forest" (Transylvania) which he came across during his european travels several years before Jack started killing. Much of the stories inspiration is quite apparent from the names used in it and owes more to his knowledge of classical literature and mythology combined with his personal experience of travels in Europe as the personal assistant of globe trotting actor Henry Irving than anything else. He based his central character therefore on a military leader known to have slaughtered thousands, not on an unknown nutter with a knife (and a passion for disected Uteri) known to have killed a handful. :p
I think the inspiration for the main character is quite clear from the name of the main character, maybe thats just me
:D
 
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Without exception, every vampire and werewolf I have known was either a serial killer or a serial killer wannabe.

Before Kevin_Lowe asks, I understand that this is merely anecdotal and, no, I do not have any statistics to back this up.
 
For those who can watch it this is a great program:
http://demand.five.tv/Episode.aspx?episodeBaseName=C5145740001

We all know what to fear when the moon is full - but where did the werewolf legend come from? The villagers of 16th century Bedburg in Germany had always feared the forest that encircled them. But then the young girls of the village started going missing. Footprints in the snow led to trails of blood. Superstitious minds wanted to believe this was the act of a wolf - or even worse, a demonic half-man, half-wolf. The villagers went looking for a beast in the woods, but the creature they were looking for was much closer to home. Part whodunnit, part inside-the-mind-of-a-monster, Werewolf: True Horror dramatises the shocking story that provided the blueprint for cinema's iconic werewolves.
It claims that the leaflet of a local who put this information together to warn other towns of the dangers of werefolk (a really nasty paedophile serial killer who abused his own children, from available evidence) formed the basis of the werewolf legend.

ETA: People do not like to think 'normal' people commit such acts, and prefer to assign some form of monstrosity or 'otherness' to them. The same series has an episode on vampires, but it really is not for the easily squeamish. It contains very graphic depictions of Vlad the Impaler's methods.
 
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formed the basis of the werewolf legend.

The werewolf legend was extant in ancient Greece, so I don't see a 17th C event as much of a foundation
The modern myth of the werewolf may be traced back in substantially the same form to ancient Greece, where it was believed that werewolves were hereditary, and originated from a curse of the gods on particular families or clans. The Greek werewolf actually transformed into a wolf, and was condemned to seek out human flesh while in its wolf state.
http://www.donaldtyson.com/werewolf.html

:p
Is this that TV series thats so factully based it hired someone famous for portraying a professor in Buffy as the narrator
 
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Well, it's a neat psychological explanation, problem with the one size fits all approach is: It's not the only one and the explanation may differ from case to case.
There were still actual wolves around to attack people. Especially when the winter was hard and game was scarce. Or when there was an abundance of carrion. So a part of the stories may be explained by regular animal attacks.
Another factor is that when you look at those few historic werewolf trials we have you see parallels to the witch trials. Confessions often happened after torture. With similar descriptions to those by the "witches". So the facts of the case may or may not be true.
The Wolfman or disheveled man as werewolf is actually rather new. Even the kveldulf is described as human in the form of an ordinary wolf.
And as for the Ulfhednar and Berserkr: From what I read thus far I would have seen them rather as an example of sympathetic magic or similar thinking, the animal garb conferring the essence of the animal and not changing them into it. (Though I remember the motive of a wolfheaded warrior from that cultural context.) Spaced out on toadstool?
 
I'm here because of the thread title.
And because the National Enquirer hasn't come yet.


Either way, yes is the answer.
Even if monsters exist, they evidently have to kill lots of people to get any notoriety.
Which makes them serial killers.
 
I'm here because of the thread title.
And because the National Enquirer hasn't come yet.


Either way, yes is the answer.
Even if monsters exist, they evidently have to kill lots of people to get any notoriety.
Which makes them serial killers.

Mass murderers ?
:D
 
For those who can watch it this is a great program:
http://demand.five.tv/Episode.aspx?episodeBaseName=C5145740001

It claims that the leaflet of a local who put this information together to warn other towns of the dangers of werefolk (a really nasty paedophile serial killer who abused his own children, from available evidence) formed the basis of the werewolf legend.
Peter StumppWP?

ETA: People do not like to think 'normal' people commit such acts, and prefer to assign some form of monstrosity or 'otherness' to them. The same series has an episode on vampires, but it really is not for the easily squeamish. It contains very graphic depictions of Vlad the Impaler's methods.

Gilles de RaisWP comes to mind. And like the Bathory case it may or may not have been a political trial. Which makes the whole lot a bit of a headache when it comes to sorting the facts from the legend.
 
My understanding is that vampire scares mostly came from the exhumation of dead people and a few observations that led people to think the dead were "un-dead". One is that as a body dries, the tissue around fingernails and hair shrinks back such that it appears the hair and nails have grown. Another are cases where a person was indeed buried alive and woke up trying to claw his way out before dying for real.

That plus all the usual stuff: our tendency to perceive agency where agency doesn't exist (a cow dies of a disease, and people think it was killed by someone, for example), the normal way of legends (a barely true story is repeated until the original facts are completely lost in the subsequent embellishments), and so on.
 
My understanding is that vampire scares mostly came from the exhumation of dead people and a few observations that led people to think the dead were "un-dead". One is that as a body dries, the tissue around fingernails and hair shrinks back such that it appears the hair and nails have grown. Another are cases where a person was indeed buried alive and woke up trying to claw his way out before dying for real.

Thats not how myth making works, theres no origin present in that example

No one familiar with death would on seeing something they had seen countless times before, jump to the "Vampire" conclusion unless the Vampire mythos already existed for them to base that assumption on, likewise in the case of a lunatic who killed someone on a full moon there also needs to be existing mythology to base an accusation on, The belief in wandering undead was pretty rampant in the ancient world where anyone who didn't receive the correct burial procedure was believed to wander the world looking to do those responsible a mischief.

with werewolves the same is also true, Peter Strupp for instance was not as claimed by "True Horror" (chillzero) the origin of the werewolf mythos but a bit player contributing to it
;)
 
Stoker was inspired to write about Dracula/Vlad by a 15th C pamphlet entitled "the land beyond the forest" (Transylvania) which he came across during his european travels several years before Jack started killing. Much of the stories inspiration is quite apparent from the names used in it and owes more to his knowledge of classical literature and mythology combined with his personal experience of travels in Europe as the personal assistant of globe trotting actor Henry Irving than anything else. He based his central character therefore on a military leader known to have slaughtered thousands, not on an unknown nutter with a knife (and a passion for disected Uteri) known to have killed a handful. :p
I think the inspiration for the main character is quite clear from the name of the main character, maybe thats just me
:D

Marduk, you're a whiz when it comes to ancient religion and culture, but you're way off the mark here. You've either accepted, without examination, the assertions of a misinformed "expert", or you've jumbled up the details in your memory and are asserting inaccurately-recalled information as factual.

The pamphlet you mention was written in 1888, not the "15th century", by Emily Gerard, a Scotswoman who had married an Austro-Hungarian cavalry officer and settled in the village of Hermannstadt, in Transylvania. 1888, of course, was also the year Jack the Ripper was active in Whitechapel.

Emily Gerard
Land Beyond the Forest

Stoker's notes begin in 1890. There is no other evidence of, or reference to, any research, or even thought, concerning the project until that year. Your claim that he began to consider the story "several years before" is unsubstantiated and fallacious.

[The New Annotated Dracula, Leslie S. Klinger, ed., Norton, 2008.]

To hammer the final nail home in your suppositions, the title character was at first called "Count Wampyr" and the setting of the story was in Styria (where LeFanu's "Carmilla" was also set). It is a matter of documentary evidence that the character and the novel were conceived, and writing begun, before Stoker discovered the name "Dracula" in the book Account of the Principalities of Wallachia and Moldavia with Political Observations Relative to Them, while he was doing research in the 1890s in Whitby.

And finally, the association of Stoker's Dracula with Vlad III is spurious, and there are many reasons to reject the notion that Stoker definitively and purposefully linked the two.

Summary of this argument here.

Stoker came across the name Dracula in his reading on Romanian history, and chose this to replace the name (Count Wampyr) that he had originally intended to use for his villain. However, some Dracula scholars, led by Elizabeth Miller, have questioned the depth of this connection. They argue that Stoker in fact knew little of the historic Vlad III except for the name "Dracula." There are sections in the novel where Dracula refers to his own background, and these speeches show that Stoker had some knowledge of Romanian history. Yet Stoker includes no details about Vlad III's reign and does not mention his use of impalement. Given Stoker's use of historical background to make his novel more horrific, it seems unlikely he would have failed to mention that his villain had impaled thousands of people. It seems that Stoker either did not know much about the historic Vlad III, or did not intend his character Dracula to be the same person as Vlad III.

Vlad III was an ethnic Vlach. In the novel, Dracula claims to be a Székely: "We Szekelys have a right to be proud..." And later "Again, when, after the battle of Mohacs, we threw off the Hungarian yoke, we of the Dracula blood were amongst their leaders." (Chapter 3, pp 27). The Battle of Mohacs took place in 1526, so if Dracula (or an ancestor) took part in it before becoming a vampire, he and Vlad III (born c. 1431) could not be the same.
 
bummer
I'm off now to sue the organisers of the Dracula fanclub of whom I was once a member * for the misinformation provided in their welcome pack

:D


(*that ended when my balls dropped, I think theres definitely a connection there with pre pubescence and liking vampires)
 
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My understanding is that vampire scares mostly came from the exhumation of dead people and a few observations that led people to think the dead were "un-dead". One is that as a body dries, the tissue around fingernails and hair shrinks back such that it appears the hair and nails have grown. Another are cases where a person was indeed buried alive and woke up trying to claw his way out before dying for real.

Correct. There may even have been folk buried in shallow graves who managed to dig their way back out, or who, in the midst of the funeral services, "arose" after they woke up. There are so many scenarios where medical science hadn’t advanced to the point of distinguishing death from disease-induced sleep/unconsciousness that it makes sense some of these legends have source material of actual folk rising up.

Of interest is the fact that almost every culture has developed some kind of vampire legend. The name is often different, but the concept of a creature that rises from the dead, usually at night, and terrorizes or feasts upon living blood or flesh is reasonably universal.

The Babylonians have the Lilu. Sumerians have the Akhkharu. In Ancient Egypt, Sekhmet would become full of blood lust after slaughtering humans and could only be sated by a blood-colored drink. In Homer's Odyssey, Odysseus takes advantage of the "shade's" lust for blood. Ancient Rome had the strix, which yielded the Romanian Strigoi and the Albanian Shtriga. In India the Bhut or Pret is a person who has died untimely and will attack the living. In northern India there is the Brahmarak Shasa who wears a crown of intestines and drinks blood from a skull. And let's not forget the Indian diety Kali who has fangs, wears corpses and skulls, and is usually worshipped via blood sacrifice. The gypsies have Sara the Black Goddess, who is akin to Kali. There are modern reports of vampires in undeveloped regions of Africa, Puerto Rico and other South American countries. China has always had the "blood sucking jiang shi". And in Japan some of the kami, or spirits, sucked blood or ate human flesh.

Wooden stakes are not the only way to destroy a vampire either. Apparently, this practice came from the belief that bodies that didn't decompose at what was considered a "natural" rate were those of vampires (or saints, depending on the PR). Preventative measures were used to keep them from rising and doing evil (obviously, this didn’t hold for the saints). This included placing a scythe over the neck so an attempt to rise would decapitate the body; placing blocks under the chin within the coffin so that the "vampire" couldn't eat the burial shroud and thus escape; and the use of stakes, as indicated. This makes sense, in that originally, the stakes were used either as a preventative measure, as with the scythe example, with stakes placed inside the coffin (lid) so that the "vampire" would do itself harm and not be able to rise, or by staking the corpse's clothing, through the bottom of the coffin and into the ground, preventing physical movement.

It's easy to see how this could quickly become a wooden stake through the heart that would slay a vampire. As mentioned above, wood would be the preferred medium at hand for almost anyone, and using metal stakes would likely be considered a waste. There is also something "natural" in the use of wood in defeating the "unnatural" vampire.

Other methods for destroying a vampire include decapitation, burning, repeating the funeral service, sprinkling holy water on the grave and exorcism.

I believe that Stoker followed the Romanian tradition for the destruction of a vampire: wooden stake driven through the body, decapitation and garlic placed in the mouth. By the 19th century, Romanians would shoot the body with a firearm, or, in extreme cases, shoot the body, dismember it, burn the pieces and mix the ash with water. The later is likely where the concept of vampires not crossing moving bodies of water may have come from, as well as the necessity of sprinkling the ashes over such water to prevent a vampire’s return.
 

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