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Waterboarding

sleeplessdwarf

Thinker
sleeplessdwarf
Joined
Oct 16, 2008
Messages
197
So Cheney admits to approving it for KSM. If we had Japanese leaders executed for this action as a warcrime, are we now saying that it is no longer a war crime? Or just one that we, the US, are only allowed to use? Thoughts?
 
It's not a war crime because the U.S. is not technically at war with anyone. Thanks to the War Powers Act I doubt the U.S. will ever have another declared war.
 
I don't think that the Japanese used water boarding.

Having said that, The US Administration would say that since KSM etc are unlawful combabtants in something that isn't a war they have no rights and that means the US can do whatever they like to them scott free.

My opinion, well... I've already gone there in another thread, no need to derail this one.
 
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then it should not be called WAR against Terrorism.
 
sleeplessdwarf said:
So Cheney admits to approving it for KSM. If we had Japanese leaders executed for this action as a warcrime, are we now saying that it is no longer a war crime? Or just one that we, the US, are only allowed to use? Thoughts?
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Can you show evidence that Tojo et al were executed for waterboarding?

Upchurch said:
Isn't this usually Wildcat's cue to cite the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002?
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Why, yes it is! :p

I'll just add that the Constitution demands no specific wording for sending troops to war, and that Congress did not even declare war on Japan and Germany in WWII. Congress merely declared that a "state of war exists" between the US and those countries. In fact, the last country to actually declare war on another was in 1945 when the USSR declared war on Japan. After WWII the UN effectively outlawed declaring war on another country, as starting a war was "outlawed". You can judge for yourself how effective that has been.

As to why Congress has abandoned declaring that "a state of war exists" it's mostly diplomatic nicety. The AUMF accomplishes the same result using different language.
 
I'm heading out for a bit so no time to find what you ask. I will post this though.

"in 1947, the United States charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for carrying out another form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian. The subject was strapped on a stretcher that was tilted so that his feet were in the air and head near the floor, and small amounts of water were poured over his face, leaving him gasping for air until he agreed to talk.

"Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor,"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/04/AR2006100402005.html

Not executed mind you, so at the very least some of our guys who ordered this or carried it out could be charged and serve some time?
 
sleeplessdwarf said:
I'm heading out for a bit so no time to find what you ask. I will post this though.

"in 1947, the United States charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for carrying out another form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian. The subject was strapped on a stretcher that was tilted so that his feet were in the air and head near the floor, and small amounts of water were poured over his face, leaving him gasping for air until he agreed to talk.

"Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor,"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/04/AR2006100402005.html
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It's true and it isn't. Asano's victims were actual POWs, for which the rules of treatment are far more favorable than unlawful combatants (who were often tried and executed within hours of capture in that war, there's footage floating around of German soldiers caught out of uniform in the Battle of the Bulge being executed) and that "water torture" was only part of the charges against Asano, which also included beatings with hands, fists, and clubs, burning with cigarettes, kicking, and "strapping on a stretcher head downward".
http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~warcrime/Japan/Yokohama/Reviews/Yokohama_Review_Asano.htm


Not executed mind you, so at the very least some of our guys who ordered this or carried it out could be charged and serve some time?
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They were! Charles Graner, who figured prominently in the Abu Ghraib abuse, got a 10 year sentence.

There is no evidence he was ordered to do what he did, several officers were charged but acquitted.
 
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WildCat said:
Can you show evidence that Tojo et al were executed for waterboarding?
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This propaganda was repeated by Raychill Maddow on her MSNBC show yesterday.

"People found guilty of waterboarding were sentenced to death and hanged."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#28269977

Not that the K.O. offspring is ever interested in facts when they get in the way of her daily diatribe aginst the Bush Administration, but would it be too much to ask her to characterize the type of waterboarding and acts of torture that Asano was charged with?

Defendant: Asano, Yukio

Docket Date: 53/ May 1 - 28, 1947, Yokohama, Japan

Charge: Violation of the Laws and Customs of War: 1. Did willfully and unlawfully mistreat and torture PWs. 2. Did unlawfully take and convert to his own use Red Cross packages and supplies intended for PWs.

Specifications:beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; water torture; burning using cigarettes; strapping on a stretcher head downward

Verdict: 15 years CHL

Only three (3) prisoners were waterboarded, and none of them were subjected to the above treatment.
 
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WildCat said:
They were! Charles Graner, who figured prominently in the Abu Ghraib abuse, got a 10 year sentence.

There is no evidence he was ordered to do what he did, several officers were charged but acquitted.
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Yeah, but now we have the White House, via the Vice President, admitting to having prior knowledge and even authorizing those same war crimes. Doesn't that change things just a tad?
 
Upchurch said:
Yeah, but now we have the White House, via the Vice President, admitting to having prior knowledge and even authorizing those same war crimes. Doesn't that change things just a tad?
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Who's worse: those that authorize it or those that actually carry it out?
 
"and that "water torture" was only part of the charges against Asano, which also included beatings with hands, fists, and clubs, burning with cigarettes, kicking, and "strapping on a stretcher head downward"."

So basically he was charged for committing more than one act of torture. I am pretty certain that waterboarding is not the only method we used as well. Maybe not burning with cigarettes but it would be a safe bet to say that we have slapped a few around with fist. (There were pictures of at least that much from the prisons in Iraq.) So by your logic we are still guilty enough to be convicted of torture.
 
Upchurch said:
Yeah, but now we have the White House, via the Vice President, admitting to having prior knowledge and even authorizing those same war crimes. Doesn't that change things just a tad?
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It's not "those same war crimes". KSM was not a POW, and like it or not there are things you can do to a non-POW that are war crimes if you do them to a POW. Note the German spies executed during the Battle of the Bulge I referenced above - had those captured Germans been POWs rather than spies they could not have even been tried, let alone executed.

And once again, "water torture" was just one of the charges against Asano. Whether or not that was the practice we know as waterboarding or something else we don't know at this time.

Of course, torture is not allowed in any class of captured enemies and we could argue endlessly whether or not waterboarding is actually torture and probably no one would change their minds.
 
sleeplessdwarf said:
So by your logic we are still guilty enough to be convicted of torture.
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For the "we" part to be true you'd have to show evidence that this was the result of orders from higher-ups. The fact that the military investigated, charged, and in many cases secured convictions for such actions argues against that.

Did the Japanese High Command ever reprimand anyone for abusing POWs?
 
WildCat said:
Of course, torture is not allowed in any class of captured enemies and we could argue endlessly whether or not waterboarding is actually torture and probably no one would change their minds.
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At risk of needing yet another link as proof, I am pretty sure I saw our congress define waterboarding as torture.

Not the congress, but the UN

http://uk.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKN0852061620080208?rpc=401

"The controversial interrogation technique known as waterboarding and used by the United States qualifies as torture, the U.N. human rights chief said on Friday."

And dodging really isn't the same as saying it is ok.

"Mukasey sent his response to Democrats Tuesday and while he said the waterboarding procedure described in their letter "seem over the line" and was "repugnant" he declined to declare it illegal."

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1677612,00.html
 
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WildCat said:
For the "we" part to be true you'd have to show evidence that this was the result of orders from higher-ups. The fact that the military investigated, charged, and in many cases secured convictions for such actions argues against that.

Did the Japanese High Command ever reprimand anyone for abusing POWs?
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With Cheney sitting in front of a reporter saying that he gave the go ahead on the methods used to extract information from KSM and others, I don't see how much more proof is needed.
 
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