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Was Jesus such an idiot?

Oliver

Penultimate Amazing
Oliver
Joined
Aug 12, 2006
Messages
17,396
I usually don't lose my way into the dark ages - but since I'm christian, too, I wonder why many Christians have no problems with violence and oppression if this happens in the name of the Bible.

Here are some examples for what I mean by that:

- Free choice
- Free sex for adults
- Gay marriage
- Free religions other than mine
- War
- Death penalty
- and some other issues...

Now I'm not interested in discussing the single issues but I wonder why the Christian fundies are okay with these Issues and believing in a pretty liberal Jesus at the same time because I can't imagine that Jesus would:

- Deny free choice if the child may be physically and/or mental retarded
- Deny free Sex if the people involved love each other
- Deny Gay Marriage if the people love each other
- Oppress Religions just because they have Fundies, too.
- Accept war for allegedly higher reasons
- Accept the death of one of his sheep ignoring the issue of forgiveness

Now I know that some people love to switch to the good ol testament to find the fitting explanation, but unfortunately you can't have it both ways: "Either you're with Jesus - or you're with the terrorists", wrong?

PS: I'm not very interested to be too active in this thread because it's meant to understand the Americans who contradict themselves regarding this issue.
 
Oliver said:
I'm not very interested to be too active in this thread because it's meant to understand the Americans who contradict themselves regarding this issue.
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Then don't waste our time. Speaking as only one American, I'm not going to bother to attack this army of straw men if you have no interest in defending it.
 
The thing with Jesus was that, if he existed, he was loved by everyone and he loved everyone, but still that doesn't mean he wasn't an idiot.

It's like today's new age gurus. Yes, everybody enjoys their achievements and they're very nice and take care of ill people and have lots of fans and follwors who bow on their knews before them...but they're still stupid.

The bible is so contradictory.
He's super powerful and likes you, so everything you don't agree with will have to be his mysterious ways.
His love directly affects you but when he hates you...oh....it's just this very mysterious and humanly incomprehensible kind of love.
It's a like a husband beating his wife.

Religion, New Age Beliefs and Conspiracy theories are by nature, contradictory and immune to critical scrutiny which leads to either paranoia, martyrdom or thickheadeness.
 
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Hourglassmemory said:
The bible is so contradictory.
He's super powerful and likes you, so everything you don't agree with will have to be his mysterious ways.
His love directly affects you but when he hates you...oh....it's just this very mysterious and humanly incomprehensible kind of love.
It's a like a husband beating his wife.
Click to expand...

:confused: :confused:

please explain
 
Well, the first part is that, because Jesus was so good and had powers and consequently everything he said became a sort of authoritative statement of unshakable truth about reality, people perceived him as such, any statement coming from him that they didn't agree with, it would only have one explanation: " *shrug* it must be his mysterious, incomprehensible wisdom only obtainable in the glorious, Heaven the house of the Lord our God."

Jesus is only good, he cannot be bad. If he shows you he loves you...like giving you advice and hugging you and playing with your children and the sheep and cloning loafs of bread for the ex-blind poor people, then sure he's a lovely individual.
If he believes gays should be stoned and throws pigs into a precipice and sees women as inferior and calls people names, it must also be love, but a humanly incomprehensible kind of love.

The religious fundamentalists twist and break everything so it fits their already dogmatic views of who Jesus Christ was.

That's what I was trying to say...

And those who say that Jesus wasn't perfect...then why call him divine? Because he said so, after spending his childhood and teenage years in mosks and in places where people only talked about the messiah?
 
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Hourglassmemory said:
the religious fundamantalists twist and break everything so it fits their already dogmatic views of who jesus christ was.

That's what I was trying to say...
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Ah ok

I sort of get you.

The pharisees at the time of Jesus also twisted their understanding of God to serve them too. Jesus wasn't very keen on that.
 
I think this is a somewhat valid issue Oliver is raising: Jesus was clearly very liberal. So, why are his most ardent followers so dang conservative?

I think the answer is that most of his ardent followers are not really interested in following Jesus, but rather their own ideological ideals; and they choose to twist Jesus into their God-of-Choice, more out their cultural heritage, than anything else.

If there was no concept of Jesus, I think fundies would still behave essentially the same way. They would merely tack their ideals onto something else, either another Biblical figure, or some other character that could have been invented (even if that character was also supposed to be liberal).

It is similar to the reason Al Queda claims they are Islamic Fundamentalists, but most Christians clearly do not take it to the same hideous extreme.
The real fundamentals of Islam are quite different from what terrorists claim. They are merely latching their ideologies onto a framework they adopted through their heritage.

One piece of evidence we have to support my claim, is in the form of Unitarian Universalism. Many of their congregations study the philosophies of Jesus, but do not believe he was really the son of God or anything else of divine nature. As a result, most of them are quite liberal.
 
ned flandas said:
What makes you say that Jesus was very liberal?
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Someone who had studied the Bible more carefully* might be able to answer this question better, but this is what I understand:

For the most part, Jesus could not care less what other people did, as long as they kept the commandments, to a certain minimal degree. He seemed to be very forgiving to people who did not devote every waking moment to such endeavors. He never seems to interfere with anyone's private life. And, he even told everyone to leave all the non-followers alone.

Jesus does not come off as a typical absolutist ideologist. He had ideals, but didn't push them as if he had any impunity.

(*my own "study" of it was mostly speed-reading.)
 
ned flandas said:
What makes you say that Jesus was very liberal?
Click to expand...
Against the established order? Check.
Against government establishment of religion? Check.
Free love? Check
Share the wealth? Check
Against capital punishment? Check
Letting women join traditionally men's groups? Check
Anti-violence? Check
Kissing guys? Check
Long hair and sandals? Check.
 
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I've always heard Jesus was 'liberal'. But now I think Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher. The end of the world was coming very soon to him and he traveled around telling people that. (The Son Of Man was coming; people would witness it in their lifetimes.) I believe this is the basic kernal of insight we have describing the 'real' Jesus.

The miracles, birth, and death are stories added on.
 
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Oliver said:
Now I'm not interested in discussing the single issues but I wonder why the Christian fundies are okay with these Issues and believing in a pretty liberal Jesus at the same time because I can't imagine that Jesus would:

- Deny free choice if the child may be physically and/or mental retarded
- Deny free Sex if the people involved love each other
- Deny Gay Marriage if the people love each other
- Oppress Religions just because they have Fundies, too.
- Accept war for allegedly higher reasons
- Accept the death of one of his sheep ignoring the issue of forgiveness
Click to expand...

Are there specific Bible verses that lead you to these conclusions? Actually, I think conclusions might be too strong a word. That lead you to these speculations?
 
Tricky said:
Against the established order? Check.
Against government establishment of religion? Check.
Free love? Check
Share the wealth? Check
Against capital punishment? Check
Letting women join traditionally men's groups? Check
Anti-violence? Check
Kissing guys? Check
Long hair and sandals? Check.
Click to expand...
You forgot:
Funky smells - Check.
They hadn't invented the shower yet, Tricky.

Although, he wasn't totally anti-establishmentarian. That whole "give unto Cesear what is Cesear" bit throws that in the dustbin.

And I don't think I'd classify Jesus's message as "free love" either. "Compassionate" maybe, but not "Free Love".

And anti-violence is RIGHT OUT. "I have come to turn brother against brother...." sound familiar?
 
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