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Wales to ban e-cigarettes in public places

The Don

Penultimate Amazing
The Don
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The Welsh assembly is proposing to introduce legislation to curb the use of e-cigarettes in public spaces:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-26837682

Personally I think e-cigarettes are an excellent idea. I'm an occasional smoker (when drunk) which can quickly develop into a habit. If I buy a pack it's usually 17 more cigarettes than I need or want and I'm reluctant to be a mooch. E-cigarettes have the advantage of not going stale and so far a single one has lasted a year.

I can appreciate the position of those who want the use of e-cigarettes banned in public spaces, children will think that it's "normal" to smoke and may not be able to discriminate between real and e cigarettes. On the other hand, how many children are in offices and is it a good idea to send e-smokers outside ?

I would prefer that this legislation was not passed and that e-smokers can smoke indoors (real smokers should continue to be sent outdoors IMO).
 
Allowing people to indulge their addiction with these substitutes still exposes bystanders to dangerous chemicals. I suggest they should be treated as cigarettes and existing legislation be used or modified.
 
catsmate1 said:
Allowing people to indulge their addiction with these substitutes still exposes bystanders to dangerous chemicals. I suggest they should be treated as cigarettes and existing legislation be used or modified.
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If this is the case then the issue is cut and dried and eCigarettes should be banned in public places, according to the NHS this has yet to be proven:

http://www.nhs.uk/news/2013/06june/pages/e-cigarettes-and-vaping.aspx

Is there any risk to others from e-cigarette vapour?

It’s not clear until more studies are done (see ‘Are e-cigarettes safe?’). Research to date has not shown the vapour to be harmful – it largely consists of water.
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The Don said:
The Welsh assembly is proposing to introduce legislation to curb the use of e-cigarettes in public spaces:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-26837682

Personally I think e-cigarettes are an excellent idea. I'm an occasional smoker (when drunk) which can quickly develop into a habit. If I buy a pack it's usually 17 more cigarettes than I need or want and I'm reluctant to be a mooch. E-cigarettes have the advantage of not going stale and so far a single one has lasted a year.

I can appreciate the position of those who want the use of e-cigarettes banned in public spaces, children will think that it's "normal" to smoke and may not be able to discriminate between real and e cigarettes. On the other hand, how many children are in offices and is it a good idea to send e-smokers outside ?

I would prefer that this legislation was not passed and that e-smokers can smoke indoors (real smokers should continue to be sent outdoors IMO).
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Do they have bars there? Of course, right? Well, why don`t legislation ban THEM, lest they give children ideas when they grow up that its okay to go out and get drunk?
What about strip joints? Those are worse YET.
Ohhhhh...i see, it only pertains to health related? Hmmmm. Maybe they should legislate against salty potato chips as salt is bad for blood pressure and could cause a heart attack some day.
 
Iamme said:
Do they have bars there? Of course, right? Well, why don`t legislation ban THEM, lest they give children ideas when they grow up that its okay to go out and get drunk?
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In the UK the idea is to try and de-mistify drinking and the pub is the centre of many communities. I agree that it's a bad idea for children to see adults getting fall-down drunk, puking and getting into fights bu then again they might see that at home in any case. OTOH having role models for responsible drinking is maybe not a bad thing.

In any case I think that the "children might see it" isn't a good enough reason to ban something whereas "children might be harmed by passive inhalation" is a good enough reason to ban. There's no evidence for "passive drinking". There foetal alcohol syndrome but that's a different kettle of fish.

Iamme said:
What about strip joints? Those are worse YET.
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In the UK, adult entertainment establishments are heavily regulated. Children are not allowed access so are not in a position to be influenced by what goes on inside. On the other hand, children are allowed into pubs and restaurants and may be influenced by the activity of others.

Iamme said:
Ohhhhh...i see, it only pertains to health related? Hmmmm. Maybe they should legislate against salty potato chips as salt is bad for blood pressure and could cause a heart attack some day.
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The link between smoking and death is well established. The link between passive smoking and negative health outcomes is also well established. I'm not aware of any risks associated with the passive consumption of fried foods. There is a well established public health campaign relating to healthier eating and there are periodic claims for increased legislation relating to some classes of food but I'm not sure what a ban on the consumption of unhealthy foods in public places is likely to achieve.
 
The Don said:
Personally I think e-cigarettes are an excellent idea.
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Same here. I fully supported the ban on smoking in public areas because constantly being forced to stand around in and inhale smelly and dangerous smoke is really not something I appreciate. But banning something with none of the associated risks or general grossness because it looks a bit like something else is just utter ********.

Yes, nicotine is itself addictive and harmful even without smoking it. So what? Lots of things are just as addictive and/or harmful, alcohol and caffeine before particularly obvious examples. We don't ban people from doing absolutely anything that could possibly be harmful to them. The anti-tobacco movement is getting more and more like the environmentalist movement - it's gone from "Stop doing specific things that have very clear problems" to "Stop doing everything because I think it's icky".

catsmate1 said:
Allowing people to indulge their addiction with these substitutes still exposes bystanders to dangerous chemicals.
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Evidence?
 
catsmate1 said:
Allowing people to indulge their addiction with these substitutes still exposes bystanders to dangerous chemicals. <snip>
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So does allowing people to stand/walk on the pavement (sidewalk) inhaling exhaust gases from passing vehicles.
 
It doesn't produce dangerous second hand smoke. And people want to ban it? Just cause it looks like a cigarette? Where's that topic about smokers being unfairly stigmatized? This looks like an obvious example where someone isn't even allowed to look like they are smoking.
 
Cuddles said:
Same here. I fully supported the ban on smoking in public areas because constantly being forced to stand around in and inhale smelly and dangerous smoke is really not something I appreciate. But banning something with none of the associated risks or general grossness because it looks a bit like something else is just utter ********.

Yes, nicotine is itself addictive and harmful even without smoking it. So what? Lots of things are just as addictive and/or harmful, alcohol and caffeine before particularly obvious examples. We don't ban people from doing absolutely anything that could possibly be harmful to them. The anti-tobacco movement is getting more and more like the environmentalist movement - it's gone from "Stop doing specific things that have very clear problems" to "Stop doing everything because I think it's icky".
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I have been following this closely, and the hysteria within the public health community is something to behold. They want people to quit smoking, because smoking is bad... but they don't want people to quit buying cigarettes, because tobacco sales fund their operations. E-cigs stand to cut into tobacco sales.
 
Charlie Wilkes said:
I have been following this closely, and the hysteria within the public health community is something to behold. They want people to quit smoking, because smoking is bad... but they don't want people to quit buying cigarettes, because tobacco sales fund their operations. E-cigs stand to cut into tobacco sales.
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This is not the case in the UK, the public health community is pretty unanimous in its desire to reduce cigarette sales.
 
Kahalachan said:
It doesn't produce dangerous second hand smoke. And people want to ban it? Just cause it looks like a cigarette? Where's that topic about smokers being unfairly stigmatized? This looks like an obvious example where someone isn't even allowed to look like they are smoking.
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Catsmate1 claims that it does. If that is true that there is dangerous second hand vapour then I'm happy to reverse my opposition to the proposed ban. If it's untrue then I will retain my opposition.
 
Iamme said:
Ohhhhh...i see, it only pertains to health related? Hmmmm. Maybe they should legislate against salty potato chips as salt is bad for blood pressure and could cause a heart attack some day.
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IANAD but as far as I'm aware, unless you have a pre-existing blood pressure condition, you can eat a bucket of salt and it won't do you any harm.


As far as the e-cigs producing harmful second-hand effects, I can verify that they do have an effect: My band partner gave up smoking a few months back and has since taken up vaping. He uses it like a dummy tit (a pacifier) and it is always in his hand and he sucks on it constantly. I have noticed that as we travel in our van to gigs, after about 30 mins, my throat is extremely dry and my lips are tingling. There is also a faint, but distinct smell while he vapes. This did not happen before he took up vaping.

This could be the result of something else coincidentally happening at the same time as he is vaping, but we sometimes travel in a car and sometimes a van, and regardless of the transport, if he is vaping, I suffer these effects. Whether this is harmful or not, I don't know, but I have banned him from vaping now in my vehicles.

He has been asked a number of times by clubs, restaurants and pubs, to go outside when they spot him vaping.
 
My potato chip example was extreme. Lol
Something possibly overlooked regarding the e-cig vapor debate might be that extra vapor in the air can more easily transport germs from illnesses, and whatever else..
.
As far as arguments go that other stuff gives off bad vapors...like car exhaust...we all know that`s bad. Lots of stuff that we are subject to, from factory and power plant emissions, to cars, to electromagnetic/radio waves, ozone, etc, are bad. But the difference between all this stuff and e-cigs is...we sort of need all those things, that are the producers of bad stuff, in our modern societies today. But we don`t need e-cigs. Other than addicts of course. But not as society as a whole.
 
Iamme said:
My potato chip example was extreme. Lol
Something possibly overlooked regarding the e-cig vapor debate might be that extra vapor in the air can more easily transport germs from illnesses, and whatever else..
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Do you have any evidence to support the highlighted claim or are you just spitballing ?
 
You've all fallen for the diversion. The reason pols want to ban/restrict e-cigs is because they're afraid the tobacco tax revenue spigot will run dry.
 
WildCat said:
You've all fallen for the diversion. The reason pols want to ban/restrict e-cigs is because they're afraid the tobacco tax revenue spigot will run dry.
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Really ? Do you have evidence to support this or is this just a gut-feel ?

If politicians in the UK were so afraid of a lack of tax revenue then they wouldn't plough so much money and effort into anti-smoking initiatives and wouldn't be celebrating the (relative) success of those schemes. If politicians really were concerned about the tobacco tax spigot running dry then they wouldn't have stopped advertising, stopped displays at point of sale in large shops and wouldn't be in the process of introducing legislation to standardise cigarette pack design along Australian lines.
 
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