andycal said:
He's referring to the passage in Isiah that gives the prophecy that "a child shall be born from a______ and his name will be Emmanuel....
In the original Hebrew text, the word "alma" meaning young woman is there. "Bethusula" is the Hebrew for virgin.
However I don't remember The Selfish Gene referring to religion much at all. Which chapter did you read it in? I have my own copy.
This is a well-known misreading of Isaiah on the part of Mt.
The word is, indeed, 'alma or "young woman." Lüdemann notes:
Prophecy of a Messiah showing up 1670 odd years later is not much help to the king! As Reimarus objected:
The word 'alma was render'd into the Greek Septuagint--"LXX"--as parthenos and the problem stuck. This is good evidence that Mt used the LXX as the source for his prophey mining.
--J.D.
References:
Lüdemann G. The Unholy in Holy scripture: The Dark Side of the Bible. Louisville: Westminster John Knox Press, 1997.
Reimarus HS. Apologie oder Schutzschrift für die vernünftigen Verehrer Gottes, Gerhard Alexander, ed. 1972. [Cited by in Lüdemann.--Ed.]
[Edited to correct reference.--Ed.]
The word is, indeed, 'alma or "young woman." Lüdemann notes:
Prophecy of a Messiah showing up 1670 odd years later is not much help to the king! As Reimarus objected:
The word 'alma was render'd into the Greek Septuagint--"LXX"--as parthenos and the problem stuck. This is good evidence that Mt used the LXX as the source for his prophey mining.
--J.D.
References:
Lüdemann G. The Unholy in Holy scripture: The Dark Side of the Bible. Louisville: Westminster John Knox Press, 1997.
Reimarus HS. Apologie oder Schutzschrift für die vernünftigen Verehrer Gottes, Gerhard Alexander, ed. 1972. [Cited by in Lüdemann.--Ed.]
[Edited to correct reference.--Ed.]
Bikewer
Penultimate Amazing
Actual biblical scholars may shed more light, but I seem to recall some historian saying that at the time, it was common practice for a to-be-wed Jewish couple to have a sort of trial marriage for a period of time.
If it didn't work out, and they decided not to marry, the woman was still considered "virginal", at least from a legal standpoint.
If it didn't work out, and they decided not to marry, the woman was still considered "virginal", at least from a legal standpoint.
triadboy
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Radrook said:
Mary was not who Isaiah was referring while speaking with Ahaz and Jesus was never called Emmanual.
Matthew was a little overzealous in forcing OT prophesies. Check out how he has Jesus ride into Jerusalem on TWO animals, because of his misunderstanding of Jewish double-speak.
Piscivore
Smelling fishy
Radrook said:
Yup, from birth to approximatly nine months before J-man was born.
JJM 777
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The Greek word "parthenos" means a woman who is biologically a virgin (never slept with a man).
The Hebrew word ";almah" means a young unmarried woman. When LXX translates this as "parthenos" (virgin), the translation is nearly correct. Neither less nor more accurate than LXX is elsewhere.
The Hebrew word ";almah" means a young unmarried woman. When LXX translates this as "parthenos" (virgin), the translation is nearly correct. Neither less nor more accurate than LXX is elsewhere.
Z
Variable Constant
It would seem that 'almah' was also used to mean a self-sufficient, young, unmarried woman. This term was used to further classify between a girl living with her father, and a woman on her own.
Mary was an unmarried woman supporting herself, who gave birth to a future Jewish preacher. Sometime between his birth and the writings of John, this was twisted into a Virgin giving birth to the Son of God and Messiah - although, he absolutely FAILED to fulfill the Jewish prophecies that existed at the time of his birth.
Mary was an unmarried woman supporting herself, who gave birth to a future Jewish preacher. Sometime between his birth and the writings of John, this was twisted into a Virgin giving birth to the Son of God and Messiah - although, he absolutely FAILED to fulfill the Jewish prophecies that existed at the time of his birth.
Brown
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Before agreeing with this comment, I have a caveat. The disciple Matthew almost certainly did not write the book that bears his name. The book itself is anonymous and was attributed to Matthew. So saying "Matthew says" or "according to Matthew" is merely a matter of convenience, as Matthew was not the author.triadboy said:
That said, the author of Matthew was indeed overzealous in forcing Old Testament prophesies. For example, the author of Matthew has the infant Jesus journeying into Egypt (the author of Luke says nothing about this, and suggests that no flight into Egypt occurred), citing an Old Testament passage that pertained to the Exodus. There are many other examples of forced retrofitting that are shamelessly passed off as fulfilled prophesy.
As for the particular passage at hand, it is not only non-Christians who are troubled by the author's retrofitting of the Old Testament. Pastor Stuart Briscoe, for example, has said that the author of Matthew took the Old Testament passage from Isaiah "out of context."
Nothing like uncertainty in language.
Parthenos, according to the Liddell-Scott Lexicon [of Doom--Ed.] refers to:
1. Maiden girl as well as a virgin
2. Unmarried woman who is not a virgin
3. Virgin goddess as a title of Artemus
it is also taken to mean "maiden" and "chaste." Also, in the masculin ho parthenos it refers to an unmarried man.
So, the mistake is quite understandable. What I find interesting is Mt--who is often billed as the "Jewish Evangelist"--relied on the LXX rather Hebrew or Aramaic texts.
--J.D.
Parthenos, according to the Liddell-Scott Lexicon [of Doom--Ed.] refers to:
1. Maiden girl as well as a virgin
2. Unmarried woman who is not a virgin
3. Virgin goddess as a title of Artemus
it is also taken to mean "maiden" and "chaste." Also, in the masculin ho parthenos it refers to an unmarried man.
So, the mistake is quite understandable. What I find interesting is Mt--who is often billed as the "Jewish Evangelist"--relied on the LXX rather Hebrew or Aramaic texts.
--J.D.
JJM 777
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Septuagint is one of the least accurate Bible translations in history, what comes to single word choices. But on the other hand, it is difficult to say what the actual source text has looked like, compared to the modern standard Hebrew Bible.
Anyway, the general opinion is that the translators of LXX have not been perfect scholars in Hebrew, and my personal opinion is that they have not been very intelligent people either. Those fools.
However, in many cases the LXX provides a more accurate reading than the Hebrew Massoretic Text. For example, the LXX provides a more accurate reading of Deut 32:8-9.
A great easy reference is:
Klein RW. Textual Criticism of the Old Testament: The Septuagint after Qumran. Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1974.
Unfortunately, no longer in print, Amazon has one for $1. This is a GREAT introduction to textual criticism which cause fundis to leak urine.
--J.D.
A great easy reference is:
Klein RW. Textual Criticism of the Old Testament: The Septuagint after Qumran. Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1974.
Unfortunately, no longer in print, Amazon has one for $1. This is a GREAT introduction to textual criticism which cause fundis to leak urine.
--J.D.
Mary was artificially inseminated by aliens, which she mistook for angels. So it was basically a virgin birth.
The star of Bethlehem was a UFO. Stars don't just appear in the sky, and if they did they would be tiny and un-noticable, and move with the rest of the sky-scape. A stationary UFO a few miles up in the sky would explain what the Wise Men saw.
Jesus died, was risen, and will come again.
The star of Bethlehem was a UFO. Stars don't just appear in the sky, and if they did they would be tiny and un-noticable, and move with the rest of the sky-scape. A stationary UFO a few miles up in the sky would explain what the Wise Men saw.
Jesus died, was risen, and will come again.