Vilification of the Victims

Someone, please explain this one...

After recently leaving the Christian Church, I began to wonder if I had made the right decision. Was I truly making a proper move, both for myself and for my family? Was I being wise in this, or was I setting myself up for further frustration and pain? Was I being selfish? Or was I thinking beyond myself in making this move?

And then I read this news story, and realized, I had no other options left.

For those who have forgotten, permit me to remind you of the story in question: Matthew Shepherd was a young college student in Wyoming who was brutally murdered by a pair of low lifes. As the final insult in this sickening crime, Shepherd was crucified on a barbed wire fence.

And now, we have this sick son of a bitch who says, "God is Happy," that this young man is dead. In fact, not only is God happy, but this SOB wants to plant a memorial plaque making note that Shepherd is "in Hell." He wants to do this in a park where there's already a plaque listing the Ten Commandments, a plaque which will likely be removed in part because of the uproar that this idiot "Pastor" is creating with his self-important posturing and self-aggrandisement.

There's no other way to describe what's happening here: This is just plain evil.

Matthew Shepherd was doing what college students have always done: he went out looking for a little fun at the end of the week. He went out to have a beer, and if things worked out, maybe he'd get lucky. I did it when I was in community college, and I'll bet you did the same thing when you were in school. The fact that he was gay is meaningless here, save for the fact that it became an aggravating circumstance in Shepherd's murder.

Let's remember one thing about this: based upon their own confessions, the two bastards that killed Shepherd were going to kill someone that night. Shepherd just happened to be handy. That he was gay somehow made it all right for those two losers to take his life. (I suppose if the victim had been a young white girl from some small midwestern town, who'd been a churchgoer all her life, this miserable, imbecilic excuse for a human being would be falling all over himself to build a monument to a "good Christian child who'd become a martyr for Christ.") Shepherd was in the wrong place at the wrong time, something which could have happened to just about anyone.

Do not misunderstand me: Shepherd should NOT have been killed. He did not deserve what happened to him. He was an innocent victim who, by all accounts, was an exemplary human being. I would have been proud to know this man, and I'm sorry that I never will. That these two animals were out, preying on innocent people, is something I will not understand. I keep thinking that someone, somewhere, had the means to stop this filth from infesting our nation's streets. That they were able to do this, that anyone would have left in any person's mind that this sort of barbarism against an innocent man was acceptable, either in the eyes of man or God, is beyond me.

But, then, we have this sick SOB who's bound and determined to honor the day an innocent man was "Condemned to Hell."

I remember well when Pope John Paul II condemned this nation as having "A Culture of Death." Those were strong words, but they were ultimately the kindest words the pontiff could use. Consider those word in light of what is being done in Wyoming, in the name of God and Man, and realize that this is being done under the auspices of the First Amendment. In short, we're getting our noses rubbed in this filth, and told too bad if we don't like it. He has a Constitutional Right to further humiliate the Shepherd family, to further their grief, to deepen their misery.

Of course, this is being described for his congregants in the most innocuous of Christian terms. This is a stern mercy, he's no doubt saying to his congregation of brainless dolts, all nodding their heads as this "Pastor" quotes chapter and verse, citing how God Hates Fags. The Lord demands HOLINESS, something Matthew Shepherd lacked, but this "Pastor" has in abundance, (though I would have believed that Mercy would have been a major component of Holiness, and Mercy is something this degenerate lacks). Yes, we must declare the Wonders of the Lord, and His Mercy, and His Wrath. (Wonder if this filth ever thought about the "double edged sword" that's hanging over his head as he spews his venom into the Topeka, KS community.)

This man is displaying the most egregious form of spiritual degeneracy that I've ever seen. He is dumping his filth not on Matt Shepherd, but on the already much abused survivors. That he wants to place a monument which will inflict further pain on the Shepherd Family, and their friends, is inexcuseable. And, frankly, I don't think the First Amendment covers something this evil.

Frankly, if this is what the Church has descended to, I'd sooner spend eternity in the company of Matthew Shepherd and share the man's bondage, rather than endure the misery of "Heaven" in this "Pastor's" neutered neanderthal god. If this is what God has become, then we are far, far better off without one.
 
It is a nice and heartfelt post Roadtoad. I would only caution that evaluation of a belief system or philosophy is best not made solely by examination of its supposed proponents' actions. If some twisted person performs heinous acts in the name of atheism it would not alter my perspective on its correctness one whit....
 
Tez said:
It is a nice and heartfelt post Roadtoad. I would only caution that evaluation of a belief system or philosophy is best not made solely by examination of its supposed proponents' actions. If some twisted person performs heinous acts in the name of atheism it would not alter my perspective on its correctness one whit....

Tez, my post is based upon over 20 years as a Christian. Believe me, you'd cringe at some of what I've seen.
 
I've been Christian my entire life, raised up in the church. I've seen some of the terrible things that are done by people who call themselves Christians.

The question for you I think, is not "What sort of people are these Christians?" We already know what sort they are. The question should be, "What sort of people SHOULD they be?" They're not holding up their end of the deal, you know? Christ promised them eternal salvation, and they're supposed to be good people.

They're not doing that.

For your own crisis of faith -- if that is what you're having -- then I would say, "the idiots notwithstanding, does being a Christian make your life better? Does it make you a better person? Does it give you comfort?"

If it does, then go right ahead and be Christian, and show the people around you how a good Christian acts. Everybody is going to fail now and again (evidence my argument with TBK). Some people, like the man in the article, seem to fail more than they succeed.

But you do YOUR best, you take your comfort in the church that you want, and bear up. Your good example is a counter against the sons of bitches.
 
If it weren't so sociopathic, Phelps could be holding up a mirror to Xianity to show why it's core has some rotten tenets.

What impact would he have on Xianity if he were to hold a press conference next week and proclaim,

"You know, I became a non-christian in 1980, but I'm still a theist. I tried to talk people out of Xianity at that time, but no one would listen. So, I pretended to turn into a pseudo-super literalist to show people the errors in Xian doctrine. They didn't even seem to notice the irony.

Rubes.

I'm done."
 
jallenecs said:
I've been Christian my entire life, raised up in the church. I've seen some of the terrible things that are done by people who call themselves Christians.

The question for you I think, is not "What sort of people are these Christians?" We already know what sort they are. The question should be, "What sort of people SHOULD they be?" They're not holding up their end of the deal, you know? Christ promised them eternal salvation, and they're supposed to be good people.

They're not doing that.

For your own crisis of faith -- if that is what you're having -- then I would say, "the idiots notwithstanding, does being a Christian make your life better? Does it make you a better person? Does it give you comfort?"

If it does, then go right ahead and be Christian, and show the people around you how a good Christian acts. Everybody is going to fail now and again (evidence my argument with TBK). Some people, like the man in the article, seem to fail more than they succeed.

But you do YOUR best, you take your comfort in the church that you want, and bear up. Your good example is a counter against the sons of bitches.

I tried that. But let me tell you, when I keep hearing time and again that people like Matt Shepherd are damned to an eternity of misery simply because they sleep with people of the same sex, yeah, I have a crisis of faith. If that's the worst thing Shepherd ever did in his life, trust me, he does NOT deserve Hell.

There are far worse things that happen in people's lives than sleeping with "the wrong person." How about gossip, which destroys lives day in, day out. How about theft, which kills slow. (I could tell you tales of missing equipment, and what it's done to me out on the road!) How about even being covetous, which rots the heart and mind.

Sorry, I tried being the Good Christian, and tried being the Good Example. I was damned by my "bretheren" as being a backslider, and a liberal. F*** 'em if they can't take a joke. I'm finished with the bastards.
 
Hmmmmm


This post came to my attention because Boo nominated it for the language award.

I understand that your recent decision to leave your church has caused you stress and has put you into thoughts.

As Tez pointed out, you seem to dismiss a whole philosopical movement, a lifestyle that for millions of people in your country and in the world seems right, based on an extreme example and an extreme and offensive reaction.

I avoid the threads of the "new born atheists" but I have read yours. I am happy that you found what you were looking for or that you discovered what wasn't right for you but I have to be honest with you. I found your post utterly offensive.
 
He's putting his monument next to the ten commandments. Isn't one of the commandments 'thou shalt not kill'? Granted, Phelps didn't kill himself (as far as we know), but he is condoning a murder. I've never seen an asterik next to this commandment referencing a footnote that said 'except for homosexuals, killing them actually makes god happy.'
 
There is no doubt that what this little man wants to do is repulsive and maybe illegal. In the country I am this would be illegal but this wasn't my point.

My point is that those monsters would kill this young man whether they were Christians or not and the little man that wants to create the monument would be equally stupid and sub-human even if he wasn't a Christian.

It's not Religion that creates monsters, this was my point.
 
Cleo, you're right. It is not always the religion that creates the monsters, but it is often the religion that empowers them. The "people" who will hate, will do it regardless, but religion gives them the license and tell them that they should hate.

Like RT, I am a reformed christian.

The fact is that while I have found different levels of the "monstrocity" within those practicing the faith, I found two types:

Those who follow the hate because they are like the others and those who believe in the good things of christianity, but don't follow the literal bible.

My own personal definition is the latter would be following the philosophies of Christ, while the former would be fundies. For that reason, I generally only refer to the latter as christians.

Like, RT, I grew tired of the hate, fear, and control practiced in "christianity". Since then, I have shaken off the faith. It was pretty easy for me, considering the church turned its back on me first, but that's another story.

Now I live in the heart of American fundamentalism. People like Fred Phelps are all to common here. That is a fact which frightens me more than you could probably imagine.
 
The city counsel of Casper, Wyoming has voted unanimously to reject Fred Phelps' offer of a Mathew Shepard monument anywhere on city property.
 
Re: Someone, please explain this one...

Roadtoad said:
After recently leaving the Christian Church, I began to wonder if I had made the right decision. Was I truly making a proper move, both for myself and for my family? Was I being wise in this, or was I setting myself up for further frustration and pain? Was I being selfish? Or was I thinking beyond myself in making this move?

And then I read this news story, and realized, I had no other options left.

For those who have forgotten, permit me to remind you of the story in question: Matthew Shepherd was a young college student in Wyoming who was brutally murdered by a pair of low lifes. As the final insult in this sickening crime, Shepherd was crucified on a barbed wire fence.

And now, we have this sick son of a bitch who says, "God is Happy," that this young man is dead. In fact, not only is God happy, but this SOB wants to plant a memorial plaque making note that Shepherd is "in Hell." He wants to do this in a park where there's already a plaque listing the Ten Commandments, a plaque which will likely be removed in part because of the uproar that this idiot "Pastor" is creating with his self-important posturing and self-aggrandisement.

There's no other way to describe what's happening here: This is just plain evil.


I agree with you. It makes me sick to my stomach. I can't imagine someone being sane, let alone a caring and loving person to say "God is happy" that this young man is dead and "in hell". You have to be mentally unstable. He sounds dangerous.

I forgot that you too had left your church recently....more recently than me. It's tough going...but also wonderful. I am enjoying being free from Christianity. I hope you are doing well.
 
Cleopatra said:
Hmmmmm


This post came to my attention because Boo nominated it for the language award.

I understand that your recent decision to leave your church has caused you stress and has put you into thoughts.

As Tez pointed out, you seem to dismiss a whole philosopical movement, a lifestyle that for millions of people in your country and in the world seems right, based on an extreme example and an extreme and offensive reaction.

I avoid the threads of the "new born atheists" but I have read yours. I am happy that you found what you were looking for or that you discovered what wasn't right for you but I have to be honest with you. I found your post utterly offensive.

I'm sorry you found my post offensive, Cleo. But, let me offer you this to consider:

I have not rejected the genuine compassion of Christians in my community. I do reject, however, that which they try to pass off as compassion, which is nothing more than veiled xenophobia and hatred. I was once a part of that, having once been a lay minister and a Christian broadcaster. Part of my "conversion," if you will, was the contact I had with people that I had hurt. Add to that what I've previously discussed here, and I think you can understand that there were valid reasons for leaving.

I'm sorry to tell you this, but here in America, there's far too many examples of what you dismiss as "extreme." I assure you: Brother Phelps is being cheered in many churches in this nation for his "courage." Frankly, I think he's an offensive slug, and how dare he subject Matthew Shepherd's family to even more misery.
 
Cleopatra said:
I avoid the threads of the "new born atheists" but I have read yours. I am happy that you found what you were looking for or that you discovered what wasn't right for you but I have to be honest with you. I found your post utterly offensive.

The truth often hurts.
 
I envy both jj and Roadtoad that are so positive about what the truth is.

The case of Matthew Shepherd was extensively reported and discussed in Greece.

You see, the local idiots thought that what caused Shepherd's murder wasn't Christianity and it wasn't the fact that he was a gay. The reason why the perpetrators commited such a crime is because they were Americans.

Yes. This was the perception of the local idiots who thought -like Phelps that they could use such a tragic event to promote their hatred. According to their logic American culture promotes and cultivates such crimes and the proof is that our country that resists still to the americanization doesn't experience such crimes and we doesn't have serial killers.

Of course many of us debated like crazy this racist idea, others by trying to ridicule it and others by trying to explain that the psychosythesis of certain killers is beyond cultural stereotypes.

As you see Phelpses exist around the world and they are equally scary.

You are wrong to believe that human cruelty is caused by a belief. Beliefs serve as excuses to the absurdity of crime.It's easier for a society to admit that somebody commits a crime because he is a Christian or a Muslim, it's the easy answer.

It's easier to say that we live in societies of bigot Christians than to admit that we live in societies of two legged animals.

I bet that in the States there are far more examples that belong to the extremes, as Roadtoad suggests for reasons we can discuss if you wish but as Babylon Sister demonstrated the majority of the American people resist to absurdity.

Roadtoad, do you think that the city council of Casper Wyoming is consisted by atheists?

What distinguishes Phelps is not his Faith in God but the distance his has put himself from the human species.
 
Cleopatra

Human cruelty can be caused by a belief. Religion gives people something that atheism cannot give them: the certainty that they are right. God is almighty. They hate homosexuals, so god must have made them hate homosexuals. God made them hate homosexuals, so he himself hates homosexuals. God hates homosexuals, so they are an abomination (sp?) before god. They are abominations, so they must be killed. They must be killed, so we must celebrate when they are killed.

Do you see the line of reasoning? No, I don´t believe this BS, but Phelps and other vermin like him do.

Disclaimer: religion itself does not cause hatred and murder. But it makes it very much easier to incite hatred and to preach murder.

You know history. Look back into time and judge for yourself: how many people would not have died violently if religion had never existed? How many would not have been killed by holy war, or burned at the stake as witches, or murdered by "pro life" terrorists attacking abortion clinics? How many would not have suffered because some priest told them their suffering would be rewarded in afterlife? Religious organizations have always caused death and suffering.

I have decided years ago that I would no longer be associated with any church, and I applaud anyone who has made the same decision.
 
Cleopatra said:
I envy both jj and Roadtoad that are so positive about what the truth is.

Please be honest about my position in the future.

It's not just this case. You don't see the people on late-night TV, urging their followers to treat different believers as sub-human animals here.

I do.

Now don't do that again, or I will cheerfully expose your misleading rhetoric, and you won't like it.
 

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