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Veterinary woo

Arkan_Wolfshade

Philosopher
Joined
Jan 18, 2006
Messages
7,154
Dropped my wife and I's puppy off to be spayed this morning, and while I was filling out the paperwork I noticed some brochures on the counter for Veterinary Acupuncture. Any suggestions/ideas/experiences/etc for resources and the like to help convince my vet that it is woo and to not offer it?

Thanks in advance,
AW
 
Dropped my wife and I's puppy off to be spayed this morning, and while I was filling out the paperwork I noticed some brochures on the counter for Veterinary Acupuncture. Any suggestions/ideas/experiences/etc for resources and the like to help convince my vet that it is woo and to not offer it?
I don't know about acupuncture, but if they're also using or recommending homoeopathy, you could refer them to this.
 
I don't know about acupuncture, but if they're also using or recommending homoeopathy, you could refer them to this.

No indication as such, but I will be watching closely to see if it crops up. Thanks for the link, that was a hoot!
 
Well, you could mention that the Chinese never performed acupuncture on animals, that it was invented in the west in the 19th century, and sort of back-exported. That all the alleged antique "acupuncture charts" of animals are misrepresentations of charts showing bleeding and cautery points. Oh, and that even these are copies of older western charts showing - bleeding and cautery points.

I attended a fascinating lecture on this about a fortnight ago, and I have the presentation as a PowerPoint show. It demonstrates quite clearly that whatever historical authenticity human acupuncture may or may not have, animal acupuncture is a sham.

When I got the chance to kick off the discussion after the presentation, I said (tongue in cheek), "But it works, doesn't it?" The presenter just turned to the account of mediaeval supersition he'd just reviewed, and said, "Well, what do you think?"

Rolfe.
 
Hi, Rolfe.

Could you make the PP presentation available to us? (If possible).

I'd certainly be interested in seeing it.

John
 
I have absolute permission from the author to make it as widely available as anyone wants. Trouble is, it's a CD. Any suggestions as to how that might be achieved?

Rolfe.
 
I have absolute permission from the author to make it as widely available as anyone wants. Trouble is, it's a CD. Any suggestions as to how that might be achieved?

Rolfe.
Sharing large data files over the internet? :cool: Sounds impossible... Unless...
 
Damn, the copy I thought I had in my CD drive here is the one I sent to Badly Shaved Monkey. I've got another at home, I'll have to tell you tonight.

Rolfe.
 
Isn't it possible to right click on the CD drive, choose explore, and then copy the files you want onto your desktop?

I'm posing this as a question as I'm not sure. I was good with my Commodore64 though. :p :D
 
Oh yeah, I can manage that bit!

Rolfe. Who has just brought an empty CD case into work, rather than the actual PP presentation....
 
I have absolute permission from the author to make it as widely available as anyone wants. Trouble is, it's a CD. Any suggestions as to how that might be achieved?

Rolfe.
Rolfe, I'd love to get my hands on that presentation. I have so many friends/associates who are into all sort of animal woo including pet acupuncture. Unfortunately they're believers so even evidence probably won't shake their beliefs, but you never know.
 
I would love to see it, too.

If it's large, try You Send It - you just need people's email address to send them the link, and they can download it.
 
I know it's possible, you berk! I just don't know how! :D

Rolfe.
Ask the usually very talented people reading the "Computers yadayada" section. They can probably help you set up the best possible solution. Bittorrent, maybe?
 
Actually, Rolfe, I have a Yahoo Briefcase I could stick it in for you, that is available for download.

However....

The bandwidth is not high, and very much demand will cause people to get a lot of "File not Founds". But the offer is there (assuming it's not over 40 MB or so).
 
Meanwhile, back at the 19th century...we could do the chain reaction thing.
Rolfe burns 2 CDs, sends one to me, one to Tim.
We burn 2 CDs...
Might be an interesting chain to start...
 
Meanwhile, back at the 19th century...we could do the chain reaction thing.
Rolfe burns 2 CDs, sends one to me, one to Tim.
We burn 2 CDs...
Might be an interesting chain to start...


tim eats his CD.... it would never work!

If Rolfe can get her paws on the presentation at work we'll work something out and I'll get it uploaded somewhere that everyone can download it from.
 
I've got the presentation. I've got two spare copies as well, that the author gave me, but I've never had much success burning CDs. Better to try to make the files avainable if possible, I'd have thought.

The PP presentation itself is 27.7Mb, there is also a Word file of notes which is 156Kb.

I can ftp them on to a web server, if that's any good as a start.

By the way, I just did the minutes of the meeting, and here is the report of the speakers' presentation.
The President then introduced Dr. Paul Buell, a sinologist from Western Washington University and Dr. Robert Imrie, a small animal practitioner from Washington State, to discuss "Veterinary Acupuncture: a western invention from the 1970s".

Dr. Buell remarked on the extreme antiquity claimed for veterinary acupuncture practices, some claims dating back to before the domestication of the horse or the invention of writing in China! In fact the documented evidence for the beginning of veterinary medical practices in China begins only in 1000AD, much later than in western records such as the Roman texts from the 3rd century AD. Even then, the practices described are mostly medical, principally recipes for drenches, with some surgical practices such as draining of ascites, bleeding, and cauterisation. These last two employed large needles, and required severe restraint of the patient. Some charts exist of bleeding and cauterisation points, also of "diagnostic points", but no mention of acupuncture. Very similar charts are found in western medicine of the time, with earlier dates, and it appears that China adopted these practices from the west. Many current practices also have a western origin, for example ear acupuncture originated in France. Acupuncture has never been a mainstream practice even in human medicine, first appearing in only 900AD, and was actually forbidden at some times. Although the Chinese did try some human practices on animals, again this was bleeding and cautery, using large barbed needles, with twisting or rotation specifically forbidden as unsafe.

Dr. Imrie displayed a number of charts of "points", but pointed out that there were not necessarily acupuncture points but rather physiognomy charts, whorl location, cautery points etc., and that such charts could be found in many cultures. The Silk Route which was in use for centuries encouraged the mixing of cultures, for example the "Yellow Emperor’s" text appears to be a version of the teachings of Hippocrates of Cos. Some human acupuncture-type procedures were transmitted to the west in the 17th century and since then had been forgotten and rediscovered several times. In 1822 the technique was tried in the horse without success, and was reported to be painful. By 1860 popularity was waning, but there was some revival in the early 20th century. However, at this stage there were no identified points or channels, with needles simply inserted at the site of the problem. In 1939 "qi", a word originally describing vapour rising from food, was invented by a Frenchman, as was ear acupuncture in the 1950s, based on a "sudden intuition". Within three years these were "ancient Chinese practices". After the introduction of modern biomedicine to China, acupuncture fell out of favour and was banned, however it was revived by Chairman Mao (who personally did not believe in it) as a means of increasing the numbers of physicians in the country, and to humiliate western scientists. Much acupuncture was invented in the 1940s and 50s, but after 35 years it was waning in popularity and used only as an adjunct to scientific treatment. There is no evidence of verum acupuncture (fine needles manipulating chi) on animals before the mid 20th century, and although the Chinese did treat horses as discussed above, there is no tradition of small animal treatment of any kind. All modern claims for the antiquity of veterinary acupuncture refer to 1950s publications, involving mistranslations of earlier texts for political purposes. Nowadays claims exist for many techniques - scalp, hand, ear; deep, superficial, non-penetrating; electroacupuncture etc. All are claimed to be effective, just as phlebotomy was in the 19th century. But is this likely?
One especially striking illustration was a Chinese drawing of a horse with a lot of points indicated, which appears on the cover of many veterinary acupuncture texts. It is in fact the first of a pair of illustrations. The accompanying text makes it clear that the points indicated are in fact the usual sites of accumulation of faeces in impacted colic, and the second illustration shows someone with his hand up the horse's backside trying to massage the impactions clear.

Another fun one is a picture of a guy holding onto a fair-sized shaft embedded in a horse's brisket. This is usually presented as an illustration of acupuncture. Dr. Buell went to the museum which holds the original artefact and made enquiries. It is in fact an illustration of a scene from a well-known historical tale, and depicts an arrow being removed from the Emperor's wounded charger.

There have been many attempts to get the veterinary acupuncturists to correct their erroneous historical claims, but they just carry on regardless. A paper describing the true historical record was rejected by JAVMA because they sent it to some prominent acupuncturists for peer review, and they bounced it saying it was all wrong because it contradicted what they'd been told in their training courses. Well, duh! The authors had expected it to be sent to respected sinologists for peer review. Silly them.

Anyway, let me know what to do about the file sharing.

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe,

I have unused webspace with no bandwidth restrictions where I'd be happy to host the files for you. You can email them to -

[edited]
 
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