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Veterinarians and others

popsy

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Jun 19, 2002
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There has been discussion about this method for getting horses more submissive.

http://www.the-endorphin-tap.com/

He advocates this:

"Basically all I'm doing is turning the horse's head to the off-side and waiting for the horse's front legs to give in. Some
horses will bow down in under 10sec and some could take a couple of minutes and you can speed this process up even
faster by slightly pulling the horse's weight onto the near-side leg or pushing the horse's shoulder to shift more weight onto
the off-side leg, but believe me "they all go". In nearly all cases,the action of legs "giving in" will be in slow-motion (i.e) the
horse will gradually lower their front end down, from there most of them will just sit down to rest their legs, some might be
able raise again only to bow down to the power of the "Endorphins" and lower again."

More on the site. Our discussion has been whether the horse is fainting from having the blood supply cut off, or if his muscles and nerves cut out from the cramp and he collapses. Somehow I doubt that it's endorphins causing it. ;-/

Any opinions?
 
I think the first thing is to try to establish consistent repeatability of the phenomena itself. Before debating the cause of the "fainting", see if the "fainting" actually happens after turning a horse's head.
 
William Parcher said:
I think the first thing is to try to establish consistent repeatability of the phenomena itself. Before debating the cause of the "fainting", see if the "fainting" actually happens after turning a horse's head.
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We don't really want to try it on the horses. The website shows that it happens predictably, if you really wanted to do it. It's not something that any of us feel would be useful and has an element of 'Darwin Award' in it. Would you want to be close to a 1000 lb. horse as it fell down? The discussion was only about *why* it causes the horse to fall over, was it fainting, or losing control of its legs and balance? But I see your point that it could be important to test his way of doing it if we really wanted to get involved in that.
 
You know, I have worked with horses my whole life, and yet have never had to use anything like this. In fact I will have to say I disbelieve in what they are saying. However to be fair I will try it. I even have a tom thumb snaffle. However when riding shoulder-in (for example) the horse's head is in the exact same position and they do not fall down. I wonder why.

And for Popsy...... not all horses weigh 1,000 pounds (although many do, and some weigh even more!!). I raise minis and even the really big ones only weigh 250 lbs or so. I will try it on one of them, just to be safe!

I was interested in the statement:

No more..... Horses walking off when you are only half in the saddle. "The Endorphin Tap" works on every horse.
No more....."Head shy" horses, touching ears and putting bridles on are no longer a battle with "The Endorphin Tap"
Click to expand...

These "problems" are quite easily solved. Does your horse move off when you mount? Teach them to anticipate receiving a small piece of carrot once you are in the saddle and they will stand there for quite a long time waiting. They are motivated by positive reinforcement and respond wonderfully to that. Same thing with the head shy horse. Teach that horse that if he stands still and allows you to touch his ears, you will give him a small food reward, you will have that horse putting his head in your lap.

Basically, training horses requires skill and patience. This "method" promises that you don't have to have skill or patience....... and yet did you read the disclaimer? Hmmm. It seems you DO have to have skill and patience. So why would you do all this other BS? It is not diffcult to teach a horse to lie down on command. But why would you do this? It is much, much easier to simply get the horse's cooperation (and it seems you need this ANYWAY) and you will find it is quite easy to work with horses.

Bottom line? EVEN if this actually worked it is totally beside the point. Human/horse realtionships rely on trust and compassion, just like human/human realtionships do. There are no shortcuts.
 
Amapola said:
And for Popsy...... not all horses weigh 1,000 pounds (although many do, and some weigh even more!!). I raise minis and even the really big ones only weigh 250 lbs or so. I will try it on one of them, just to be safe!



Basically, training horses requires skill and patience. This "method" promises that you don't have to have skill or patience....... and yet did you read the disclaimer? Hmmm. It seems you DO have to have skill and patience. So why would you do all this other BS? It is not diffcult to teach a horse to lie down on command. But why would you do this? It is much, much easier to simply get the horse's cooperation (and it seems you need this ANYWAY) and you will find it is quite easy to work with horses.

Bottom line? EVEN if this actually worked it is totally beside the point. Human/horse realtionships rely on trust and compassion, just like human/human realtionships do. There are no shortcuts.
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I hope I didn't make it appear that I contemplated using this 'method'. Was merely curious about what caused it.

I do know that not all horses are 1000 lbs. I used that as an average as Warmbloods, Quarterhorses, and Arabians are the norm in this area.

Yes, we noted the "Don't try this on anything but a submissive horse" warning. Like Duh.

My shoulder-ins were never the severe angle that this guy uses. In fact it wouldn't be a shoulder-in if it were. He cranks the head around with a full-cheek (not Tom Thumb) and puts them off balance at the same time. Sure they fall to the ground, but so what.

The people down the road used to raise minis. I've never seen such cute foals as those little guys. They didn't even look real. I thought about getting one after I could no longer ride but decided I'd stick with dogs, instead. :-)
 
Oh I see - he's just calling it a Tom Thumb when it is really a full cheek.

Now that I think of it, I know that you can knock a sheep down in a somewhat similar way. But I don't think it has anything to do with endorphins. What you have to do is grasp the sheep's head with your left hand, while the sheep is standing in front of you facing to your left, and pull the head to the side and over the back towards the right. Then you need to hold the sheep in that position for a few minutes. They lose their balance and fall down, but from watching them my impression was that they were dizzy. (Sort of like looking straight up at the sky between 2 cliffs or buildings can make you dizzy.) When you let a sheep up after this, they stagger a little just like they were experiencing the head-spinning from being dizzy. I just figured it disorients them.

I'm going to try it on a mini just to see if it actually works. Again I have my doubts........ His "half tap" was not very severe in angle and I have certainly ridden horses with that angle. I've also seen people tie a horse's head around to the side (seems completely pointless to me, but apparently they think it will do some good, somehow) and never saw one fall. It just seems to me that I'd have seen one fall before this, if this actually worked, but I am willing to experiment.

I agree with your "so what" comment. It just seems so pointless.

Yes, mini foals are adorable. :) We love the spring!
 
Interesting about the sheep. I think it must be something working the same in horses. I suppose if it caused them enough stress it could cause their pituitary, or whatever, to release endorphins, but again - so what. Doesn't seem to have much to do with training.

I think the fact that one has to 'wait for the endorphins' is telling. Wait for the body to get tired enough to collapse? And yes, it should say something that he calls a full-cheek snaffle a Tom Thumb.

I look forward to your report on your experiments with your minis. Do you show your minis? The guy down the road used to do a lot of driving with his. Sure was cute.
 
Amapola said:
Bottom line? EVEN if this actually worked it is totally beside the point. Human/horse realtionships rely on trust and compassion, just like human/human realtionships do. There are no shortcuts.
Click to expand...

I'm not being sarcastic or snarky or anything, but I always thought relationships with riding horses were based more on training and domination. Seems like you generally wouldn't cage and ride a friend you trusted and felt compassion towards. Though I should point out I've never owned or trained a horse (but I have ridden them before).

Again, not having a go or anything, I just always thought that was an interesting relationship, man and horse. Then it probably would be appropriate for most animal/peeps relationship I guess.

Random thought finished.
 
Wheezebucket said:
I'm not being sarcastic or snarky or anything, but I always thought relationships with riding horses were based more on training and domination. Seems like you generally wouldn't cage and ride a friend you trusted and felt compassion towards. Though I should point out I've never owned or trained a horse (but I have ridden them before).

Again, not having a go or anything, I just always thought that was an interesting relationship, man and horse. Then it probably would be appropriate for most animal/peeps relationship I guess.

Random thought finished.
Click to expand...

You're correct. We definitely take advantage of a horse's good nature and trainability by using them for our own purposes, which include making them carry weight and/or go places that they wouldn't otherwise. Training, however, can be done with compassion and understanding of how horses think. Training is done in increments so the horse should never be asked for more than it is capable of. There is no reason to beat a horse though they can definitely understand discipline as it is used as a way to show them their place in their herd. Dressage riders may use a whip to re-inforce their aids (requests given with legs, seat, or hands) but once the horse complies (after it has learned the aid) the whip is redundant. It is not used to beat a horse into submission. Advantage is taken of the horse's natural submission in all horse/people interactions. I wouldn't use saddlery to gain a human friend's submission to my requests. (I might beat them though. J/K) So no, I don't consider a horse a friend. I consider them horses, animals that should be treated with respect and compassion. I might even do that with a human friend. ;-)
 
Wheezebucket said:
I'm not being sarcastic or snarky or anything, but I always thought relationships with riding horses were based more on training and domination. Seems like you generally wouldn't cage and ride a friend you trusted and felt compassion towards. Though I should point out I've never owned or trained a horse (but I have ridden them before).

Again, not having a go or anything, I just always thought that was an interesting relationship, man and horse. Then it probably would be appropriate for most animal/peeps relationship I guess.

Random thought finished.
Click to expand...

:D You won't have much success or luck with horses if you do not use compassion and trust. I hear of a lot of people having "trouble" with horses but most of it is avoidable. As Popsy pointed out, many of them are very, very big, and you will not get them to comply with you through force. If they really don't want to do something, they won't and there is NOTHING you can do about it. However it is very easy to get a horse to do something it wants to do. If you have a compassionate relationship with that horse, none of this is difficult. I guess it's a little like being a boss....... no one wants to work for a boss who is a (rule 8)ing conehead, but a good boss? Peope will work late, come in on weekends etc.

It is true that we don't ride humans. They really aren't built for it. :D As far as "caging"........ I suppose there are some different opinions on this. My own horses live in large pastures with a social group. If a particular animal does not get along in that social group I set up another. Personally I would not refer to this as "caging" but if you feel that way about it I sure won't try and change your opinion.

And for Popsy..... I drive and pack my minis, but don't show. Maybe some day! I'll try and "knock one down" tomorrow when we can get pics, if anything happens. I remain skeptical, but hey, that is just me. I'm willing to try.
 
popsy said:
How much weight can they carry? Do you hike with them, or ride a bigger horse?
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OK, this is a derail but it is your thread! :)

General rule of thumb for equines: 25% of the body weight is the max they should carry. This includes the tack! A mini that weighs 150 lbs should not carry more than 37 lbs including halter and saddle. A 300 lb mini can carry about 75 lbs safely. How do you find out how much they weigh? The vet has a scale. Weigh them!

The horses must be fit, and acclimatized slowly to the work so they do not experience soreness or torn muscles.

You walk with them. Minis and big horses should only be carefully put next to each other. One "friendly" kick from the big horse could kill the mini. If it happens once that is too many times in my opinion. Also, if you are walking too, you will "notice" when it is time to rest!! :D

This is a great way to see the country, very healthy exercise for both human and horse. We are always careful to bring something nice for our 4-legged porters to eat when we get to our destination. We keep the hikes short and within everyone's capabilities. Most of the horses can outhike us, though.
 
Amapola said:
OK, this is a derail but it is your thread! :)
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That's Okay. Doesn't seem like anyone has an answer to my question, anyway.

I hadn't thought of big and little horses together being an iffy thing, good point. I have little bitty dogs and I don't let them around big dogs. Too much risk.

Where did you get your first minis?
 
I remember reading a psychology text book a while ago that mentioned a twitch applied to a horses muzzle induced an endorphin release, which is the reason they (alledgedly) go quiet as soon as it is applied. I did ask our vet, she said she had heard the same thing.

Having said that, one of our horse won't tolerate a twich, BUT holding her head to one side does seem to work... nothing as severe as in the "full TAP". She is only a 13hh pony, so is far easier to work with than the biger horses. We "discovered" it when she needed a long course of shots but she was only held like that for a max of 10 seconds.

PS: minis are cute... we have two but they cause more naughty trouble than the rest put together!
 
Hi Sesmo K - welcome!

The twitch does indeed release endorphins....... I have done some reading on that and know that there were studies done that proved it. People used twitches for years and years and never understood why they worked. Someone finally decided to find out why. I had never heard of this "Tap" business, but that is very cool that you have worked out a different way to restrain your pony. It may, or may not, be endorphins. The pony may find it comforting or distracting enough to make the shots endurable. Do you notice the eyelids drooping and a glazed look coming into the pony's eyes when you have the head held? That might indicate endorphins. The main thing is, it works for that pony.

I have used other techniques for restraining horses who were (almost) as big of sissies as I am about shots. For a particularly bad one, we had people stand on his far side and grab up a huge bunch of his skin and muscle on the neck. He was so worried about what they were doing he never noticed receiving the shot on the near side of the neck.

Yes, minis can be mischevious little devils. That's why we like them so much. ;) They always make us laugh.

My first minis came from a breeder in my state who was dispersing her herd. One of the best decisions I ever made.
 
Mesmerizing

I'm curious about the Endorphin Tap and how many times you can use it on the same horse, assuming it works. If it is frightening for the horse, I wonder what happens the second or third time you try it. If it does send the horse on a good trip, it might be inconvenient to have him following you around wanting you to do it again. At the very least, I guess we shouldn't try the Vulcan Horse Pinch at home.

Just wondering - does anybody hate the term Horse Whisperer as much as I do, not to mention Ghost Whisperer, Dog Whisperer, etc.?
 
I am not a horse doctor but it seems to me that the effect has nothing to do with endorphins. Talking to other vets, it is nothing new. Perhaps it is a psychological technique or training method but it makes little sense that endorphins have anything to do with the observed behavior. Other possible causes mught be cardiovascular and/or neurological effects (affecting blood flow to brain or blood pressure.)
 
This sounds to me very like the trick used by film stunt riders to bring a horse down during a staging of a mounted gunfight. I understand the horses are trained to go down with quite light aids, but the beginning of the training, as I read about it, involved turning the horse's head tightly to encourage it to fall. If you watch some westerns you can see the riders doing it - the horses don't always obligingly dive on cue, and sometimes you see quite a lot of head-twisting before they keel over. I never got the impression there was anything especially strange about it, just that unbalancing a heavy quadruped in a certain way will result in a fall.

I know another way to do it! During my research I found I had to take blood samples from a rather non-standard place, much further down the neck than usual (because I was using the mid-part of the neck for something else). OK, lots of times, nothing happened at all. But three times the horse in question (three different animals) just abruptly buckled at the knees and keeled over. This was seriously scary at the time, but each time the victim got up and carried on as if nothing had happened. I've joked that if I could find the right spot every time, maybe I could win the JREF prize for acupunture! My current theory is that the needle caused a vasovagal syncope.

I was asking a very seniour horse-vet colleague about the twitch thing the other day. I specifically asked him if it was in fact true that a twitched horse has a very slow heart rate. He said he didn't know. I'd be interested to hear if anyone else knows. I don't think I've ever had to resort to a twitch since I was a student. The trouble is that by the time you decide you need to use a twitch the horse is probably already as high as a kite. But surely the question of the heart rate is an easy one for someone to verify?

Rolfe.
 
I new here amd would just like to ask has anyone tried this ?

I've seen this guy do this and there is no force involed. He just turns the horse's head around to the side and they get zonked out and eventually lie down..

He said nobody should ever need to lie their horse down because that was for emergencies if you had to do it..

What he was preaching was using this as a substitute for the twitch which doesn't alsways work and when it does only works for a short time before the horse goes ballistic.

Using this "tap" and being able to do things to the horse you normally could do without a twitch or other resraints to help you get the horse over some complexs the horse has about getting injections,wormed or getting a horse over ear/head shyness, is a very humane way considering the horse:human weight ratio...

Call this a KO or a faint but this works on any horse and at the moments he is getting scientic proof for the non believers...
 
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