Vaccine, Preservative Do Not Cause Autism - Panel

[CurtC]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=571&e=12&u=/nm/health_autism_dc

The Institute's panel, which included experts in pediatrics, family medicine, statistics and epidemiology, had reported in 2001 that there was no proven link between vaccines and autism but said there was not quite enough evidence to be definitive.

Since then, they have reviewed five large epidemiological studies done in the United States, Britain, Denmark, and Sweden that found children who were vaccinated with thimerosal-containing vaccines were no more likely to have autism than children who got thimerosal-free vaccines.

They looked at studies that reported links between vaccines or thimerosal and autism, but found none of them could show a connection.

They searched for evidence of a biological explanation of how immunizations or thimerosal could cause autism, and found none.

Then my favorite part:

"This report went beyond any other report and this is why I felt it was political," Barbara Loe Fisher, who founded the National Vaccine Information Center, said in a telephone interview.

She said she would like to see research done by scientists with no connections to the "public health community."

 

[Capsid]

There is also this article published in 2003 which reviews the vaccine additives.

Offit PA et al., 2003. Paediatrics 112; 1394-1401.

You can get it as a pdf file from PubMed or PM me, I have a copy.

Vaccines often contain preservatives, adjuvants,
additives, or manufacturing residuals in addition
to pathogen-specific immunogens. Some parents,
alerted by stories in the news media or information contained
on the World Wide Web, are concerned that some
of the substances contained in vaccines might harm their
children. We reviewed data on thimerosal, aluminum,
gelatin, human serum albumin, formaldehyde, antibiotics,
egg proteins, and yeast proteins. Both gelatin and egg
proteins are contained in vaccines in quantities sufficient
to induce rare instances of severe, immediate-type hypersensitivity
reactions. However, quantities of mercury,
aluminum, formaldehyde, human serum albumin, antibiotics,
and yeast proteins in vaccines have not been
found to be harmful in humans or experimental animals.
Pediatrics 2003;112:1394 –1401;

The main danger is with anaphylactic shock as a result from allergies (mostly to gelatin egg protein), but this is rare and the reason why vaccines should be administered in a clinical setting.

What I found interesting was that aluminium is present in breast milk at similar concentrations to the vaccines and that formaldehyde is present in our blood at greater concentrations. Formaldehyde does not cause cancer in humans. It is an essential intermediate for the synthesis of purines, pyrimidines and amino acids

 

[Eos of the Eons]

genetics plays a role in autism, and several studies show clear signs of prenatal onset of the disorder, including brain differences at birth, the report notes.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/05/18/vaccines.autism.ap/index.html

Parents do not want to face it. One in 1000 kids gets autism. One in a hundred gets schizophrenia. Why don't they start picking on vaccines for schizophrenia? Because autism is a delaying type disorder that is apparent as a child reaches certain levels of development. Schizophrenia hits in teenage years or early adulthood when vaccines are no longer routinely administered.

Brain differences at birth people. Genetics.

 

[CurtC]

Maybe schizophrenia is caused by masturbation? Nah, I'm fine.

 

[Beancounter]

Maybe schizophrenia is caused by masturbation? Nah, I'm fine.

And you?

 

[Chris Haynes]

...
Brain differences at birth people. Genetics.

In a moment of work avoidance I checked over at www.mothering.com website... I clicked on their report on the IOM report: the links they have of the reactions almost made me gag.

Argh.

Oh, and since I have a family member who has recently been diagnosed with a mental illness... they are also prone to quacks and scamsters. Her naturalpathic "pharmacist" has declared that psychiatrists at the county hospital are idiots and that "Evil Organized Medicine" prescriptions are horrible compared to the things from herbs that she gets from the compounding pharmacy.

But back to what Peter Bowditch calls the "Anti-vax liars"... just checking the titles of their reactions to the IOM report is enough to make me ill.

These guys should stop playing the "blame game" when it comes to autism (and some of the kids I've met recently whose parents claim have autism do not seem like the kids who actually were autistic that my son went to preschool with over 10 years ago). They need to work on finding ways to get and fund early intervention.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Oh man, I'm sorry to hear about your relative. I know what it's like to have a relative with no medical intervention whatsoever to help manage their mental illness. I don't know what's worse, a relative who denies their illness, or one trying to rely on useless quackery.

I'm not even going to touch that link you posted. Nope, not, no no no...maybe in a few hourse when I get home. Must not now!

There are tons of things included under the umbrella "autism" now. Even Asperger's. They weren't before.

 

[pgwenthold]

In a moment of work avoidance I checked over at www.mothering.com website... I clicked on their report on the IOM report: the links they have of the reactions almost made me gag.

I was blown away by their "expert" answer to the question, "How do I know if my child has had a reaction to a vaccine?"

Not sure what to expect, I looked into it. The answer? Basically, it was "mothers can tell when they children have had a reaction." For details, there were some behavioral things to look for that she listed.

So, in principle, she may have answered the question "how do I know my child has had a reaction," if you define "had a reaction" as "shows behavioral change."

OTOH, there is nothing there about knowing it was caused by the vaccine. Given that this is the real quesiton at hand (do vaccines cause reactions?) shouldn't the challenge be in determining if vaccines are the cause?

The question is, "I have a child who just showed a change in behavior. What caused it?" Nothing she said has provided any light on the subject.

 

[Dragon]

HCN and EotE,

I've also noticed that we now have something called "autism spectrum" disorders which include everything from severe autism through to Aspergers (which can be mild enough to remain undiagnosed for years).

 

[Eos of the Eons]

That is it Dragon. A parent will be told their kid has asperger's and the parent will run around saying vaccines made the kid autistic.
http://www.mmrthefacts.nhs.uk/news/newsitem.php?id=62

I was blown away by their "expert" answer to the question, "How do I know if my child has had a reaction to a vaccine?"

Not sure what to expect, I looked into it. The answer? Basically, it was "mothers can tell when they children have had a reaction." For details, there were some behavioral things to look for that she listed.

So, in principle, she may have answered the question "how do I know my child has had a reaction," if you define "had a reaction" as "shows behavioral change."

OTOH, there is nothing there about knowing it was caused by the vaccine. Given that this is the real quesiton at hand (do vaccines cause reactions?) shouldn't the challenge be in determining if vaccines are the cause?

The question is, "I have a child who just showed a change in behavior. What caused it?" Nothing she said has provided any light on the subject.

That site is so full of liars I don't know where to begin. All your questions are valid. I DARE you to go there and ask any of them. You will be accused of having an agenda. I was, and I posed my questions just as reasonably as you did, if not more.

Simply ask what behaviour changes to expect after a vaccine. You will get a whole spectrum from wildly hyper to staring off in space.

Never mind they are not "vaccine reactions". A vaccine reaction is swelling or itchiness at the site, or a fever, or a few other mild symptoms (like crying) that the child is observed for after having the shots. My kids had to stay at the clinic for 15 minutes after their shots so that any symptoms could be recorded.


More serious reactions (like to DPT) include:

refers to Moderate Problems only, which includes a possible seizure (a simple febrile seizure that is extremely unlikely to have any complications), and "shock/collapse" or anaphylaxis (a temporary condition of low blood pressure and poor circulation which is usually either self limited or treatable with an adrenalin injection, but unlikely to produce permanent complications).

http://www.rainbowpediatrics.net/faq/18.10.html
For most vaccines this is one in a million chance to get those, with DPT the chances are higher, but who wants to take a chance on getting polio instead of the vaccine?

Those nutballs on HC's link would rather take their chances with polio because they think all the quackery (oils, herbs, special sugar free diets) will make them magically immune to every microbe or cancer or whatever other dumb humans (like us) get who don't use quackery.

Why am I so annoyed? Because I lost a friend to that very site. She doesn't get her kids vaccinated (yes most have heard me whining about this before, but somehaven't).

Please ask a few innocent questions, and let me know how it goes .
Ask them on their forums here: http://www.mothering.com/discussions/forumindex.php


Oh, and check out who their "experts" are.

Try these links for truths about vaccines

http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight/vaccines1.htm


For more on "experts" like the ones on mothering.com go here:

http://www.members.shaw.ca/eostory/Vaccine Quotes.html

Awesome source you can print

http://www.mmrthefacts.nhs.uk/resources/pdf/leaflet.pdf

Along with other choices

http://www.mmrthefacts.nhs.uk/resources/

 

[Prester John]

mothering dot com s' forum is a vile place. Home to Hilary Butler whos completely raving and if you feel like sport really easy to wind up. You will however get banned pretty quickly and don't even think of giving out anything resembling personal details.
No morals and no idea either.

 

[gethane]

I really must post. Mothering.com is a place I hang out to talk about breastfeeding, not circumcizing my son, and not having my son cry himself to sleep. It is NOT all about not vaccinating. I happen to have had my son vaccinated on Wednesday.

But mothering.com/discussions is NOT a vile place.

Edited to add: just like ANY forum you can find your nutcases. I seem to recall a few here perhaps? Shall I judge everyone here on the things I've read by Jedi Knight or American?

 

[Eos of the Eons]

I really must post. Mothering.com is a place I hang out to talk about breastfeeding, not circumcizing my son, and not having my son cry himself to sleep. It is NOT all about not vaccinating. I happen to have had my son vaccinated on Wednesday.

But mothering.com/discussions is NOT a vile place.

Edited to add: just like ANY forum you can find your nutcases. I seem to recall a few here perhaps? Shall I judge everyone here on the things I've read by Jedi Knight or American?

At least they don't get banned or accused of having an agenda. It' vile because I get called a child abuser for having my kids vaccinated. I bet you don't tell anybody there that you actually do vaccinate your kids.

All I ever read there was that vaccinated kids are sick all the time. Vaccinated kids are less intelligent. Vaccinators are brainwashed morons.

I did the rest you did. My son is not circumcised. My kids were all nursed. I don't let my children cry themselves to sleep. Just tonight my daughter woke up crying and all she needed was a sip of water and she went right back to sleep. She's 18 months old.

Does that matter. No. I get accused of having an agenda because I dare to ask why polio would be natural to the gut flora. I dared to ask why Viera Schiebner was seen as a legit source of information.

I got banned.

Do you see Olaf getting banned? Do you see Rouser getting banned? NO!

That place is horrible because you don't dare let anyone know you actually vaccinate your kids. You don't dare let anyone know you would prefer to take your kids to an "allopath" instead of a naturopath. You don't dare suggest microbes will still kill you even if you eat a certain way and cut all sugar out of your diet. It's not microbes that make you sick. It's TOXINS. It's ALLOPATHS and their evil agenda with the government to PUSH vile poisonous vaccines on your kids.

I commend you for not eating up all the crap on the site, but there are mothering places that will support you and not ban you for asking why a virus would be natural to gut flora.

It's not just a few people there either. It's most. It's the ones that follow you around and harrass every post you put on there after they find out you actually vaccinate your kids. In one post I mentioned that solid food isn't the best idea for a 3 week old since they can't really digest it anyways. I got harrassed for saying that!

I only went there because my friend hangs out there. Now my friend is no longer my friend unless I write some letters in defence of murderers like Yurko. I'm a traitor. I'm a bad mom.

That place is horrible and full of lies. You can even learn how to lie

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=147934

I AM THE PARENT OR LEGAL GUARDIAN OF THE ABOVE-NAMED CHILD. WE ARE MEMBERS OF THE ________________________________________
CHURCH OR RELIGIOUS SECT.

IMMUNIZATIONS ARE IN CONFLICT WITH MY RELIGIOUS TENETS OR PRACTICES. THEREFORE, I REQUEST THAT MY CHILD BE ENROLLED IN SCHOOL OR CHILD DAY CARE WITHOUT THE IMMUNIZATIONS REQUIRED BY SECTIONS 232.032, F.S. AND 402.305, F.S.

Nevermind that your child is exempt out of your ignorance rather than your religion.

Vaccines are still made with mercury, just not as much as before. Now the amounts are thought to be "clinically insignificant"

LIARS!

Yes, it feels great to have influenced various people against vaccinating their children. But I am not as brave as you, I haven't been approaching pregnant women whom I don't know. How does it go usually when you do that? How do you do that? You're starting to give me ideas.

It feels great to lie to people. It feels great to scare people. It feels great to put children at risk of infections.

That forum is vile.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

gethane,

Just in case you don't get that far in my post, I wanted to say again that I admire you greatly for not believing the worst on that site. You get the good and leave the bad.

You're an awesome mom!

Admirably,

Eos

 

[gethane]

You know, there's an easy solution to not running into the problems you mentioned.. DON"T GO TO THE VACCINATION FORUM! I've admitted that I vaccinate. I just don't go into the vaccination forum to be abused, argue, and generally try to convince them they are morons. If you don't do that, you are fine. It doesn't say vaccination DEBATE forum. Just like in the circumcision forum you CANNOT debate the religious aspects of circumcision. It's not allowed.

I debate and argue with people ALL THE TIME over there. I do it on the Activism forum. Where it belongs.

I also don't go to the relgious freaks forums and argue with people there (getting banned) like some people here on JREF do. I also don't go to the KKK sites and argue the "merits" of rascism. If you go to a place, to a forum specifically setup for something, and then rudely and agressively argue against it, yeah, you are going to get banned. Mothering is a NATURAL FAMILY LIVING magazine, as well as attachement parenting. It seems to me that vaccines very well might be one of tht things that they don't consider "natural."

JREF has rules too. If you break them, you get banned. That's how forums are run.

Mothering.com is NOT vile. The vaccinations forum might be filled with woo-woos and people you disagree with, but the Mothering.com forums has what.. 25 or more forums? We're going to condemn an entire site for ONE spot on it?

I'm appalled by that. That doesn't seem very "skeptical" to me, to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

You know, there's an easy solution to not running into the problems you mentioned.. DON"T GO TO THE VACCINATION FORUM! I've admitted that I vaccinate. I just don't go into the vaccination forum to be abused, argue, and generally try to convince them they are morons. If you don't do that, you are fine. It doesn't say vaccination DEBATE forum. Just like in the circumcision forum you CANNOT debate the religious aspects of circumcision. It's not allowed.

.

I did go out of the vaccine forum. I still got harrassed. I still got banned. I didn't go try to convince them they are morons. That would have been insulting my friend. I asked one simple question. I wasn't debating. I was not interested in debating. I was darn curious of the answer.

Vaccines are plenty natural. They are anti-vaccine activists on that site because they are the one with the "agenda". It's so hypocritical of them to push a bunch of unnatural, unproven, and even harmful "herbal remedies" on folks in place of adequate protection from killer diseases.

I condemn the site because they are hypocrites and liars and harm children because of it. I have never been to a forum that is so one-sided and intolerant.

The place is extreme in an area that they have no business condemming as harshly and as unethically as they do.

I only set up my web site AFTER I was banned from there. I realized how horribly pushy (as I posted above with their approaches to complete strangers on the street even) they were there and in real life.

Folks will remember when I first came here that I was upset because I DIDN'T break their forum rules there and WAS unfairly banned.

They scare me and they spread their horrible lies like a plague there and to people in their communities. That is how I lost my friend. I wouldn't join her in a letter writing campaign to defend a child killer.

If you go on the vaccine part of the forum you HAVE to watch your step and what kinds of questions you ask. That's sickening. What they post there is sickening as well. Facts are not allowed. Only lies and more lies. The truth is not allowed, only conspiracy theories and pseudoscience is.

You shouldn't have to go to some debate section to ask why a virus would be natural to gut flora. It's a legitimate question.

One spot on it? I got banned because of that one spot. That one spot is the most dangerous part and does a whole world of harm. The parts on health are out of line as well becaue they are so anti "allopath". That goes along with their anti-vaccine stance. Doctors and vaccines are NOT "unnatural".

Why do you think I don't bother trying to get socks on there? I don't bother with homeopath forums either. I go to mom sites where they are not so dead set against facts. Fact is that microbes kill matter how "natural" you think you are. They kill you when you take homeopath remedies. They kill you when you think herbs can protect you. Fact is that vaccines are not harmful, do not cause autism, and are not a conspiracy to make you "unnatural".

If you cannot discuss the facts, then I'm out. Not that I even had a choice in the matter.

I do choose not to go there and try to convince them that they are "morons". I go here and point out how ignorant, untruthful, and arrogant they are.

I do reserve the right to point out how close minded, unethical and untruthful forums like mothering.com and homeopath sites are. You can try to defend them, and it's your right, but it doesn't remedy the fact that they are vile.

If they weren't vile then you could post facts on the site alongside their fiction. They are so out there that they cannot handle that.

Try to find ONE post with the fact that polio is not natural to the gut. Try to find ONE post that shows that the fact is that vaccines DO NOT cause autism. These facts are not welcom on the vaccine forum on mothering.com. People will not go looking for the facts in the debate section. If anything, the facts will be swatted down with a vengeance in the debate section as well.

I would be more than happy to see a site the promotes "natural living" in a healthwise way that is not so dead set against the facts and anything not pseudoscience.

Those people running mothering.com are shameless and would rather see us all running around getting smallpox, polio, measles, pertussis, etc. instead of getting vaccinated. They even go as far to say that diseases are just fine and dandy and harmless. Liars. They claim us "mainstream" folks are stupid and brainwashed sheep that are unhealthy because we go see doctors instead of dowsing ourselves in (unproven, ineffective and potentially harmful) things like 'essential' oils.

So yes, they can continue on with their whining on how they are so persecuted for trying to "live natural' and continue to ignore how they reject reality in favor of ignorance that they push on others by calling everybody brainwashed morons that would dare utter a fact or two.

Poor innocent them pushing lies conspiracy theories. They are just trying to 'live natural'. Nevermind that they are profitting by calling being the pots calling the kettle black.

 

[gethane]

Obviously you feel very strongly pro-vaccination. And that has soured you on all the other very positive things advocated on mothering.com.

Formula fed babes are 20% more likely to die during the first year than breastfed babies. I believe that was in all the mainstream news sites just a few weeks ago. Mothering advocates exclusive breastfeeding for at least the first year of life.

Circumcision denies every single person that has it done, their foreskin, their genital tissue. Mothering.com supports doing away with routine infant circumcision and giving boy babies the same rights against genital mutilation that girl babies have.

Mainstream parenting sites advocate crying it out and other abusive (yes, i do believe it is abusive if done to an infant) parenting techniques. Mothering.com advocates responding to your child's needs at nighttime as well as during the day.

Pharmaceutical companies make formula. They buy foreskin. How can you blame these women for not trusting them to make good decisions for people about vaccines?

For myself, I just haven't seen the evidence to convince me, but what are these women getting out of it? I don't see how its benefitting them to leave their children unvaxxed. Frankly, the pharmaceutical industry scares me too.

Yes, the vaccination forums are filled with people that are certain that something is wrong with vaccines. Heck, my children don't react that well to vaccines either. When my youngest got his 2 months shots he was sick and fussy for two weeks after and I delayed his 4 month shots until he was 6 months for that very reason.

I've been looking at the vax forums, and I see people asking questions. I obviously don't know your particular situation, as far as what you posted and where.

I think the good that can be done at mothering.com from the other issues I mentioned above outweighs the very few people that are choosing not to vaccinate. How many babies lives would be saved around the world if the formula companies actually abided by the WHO strictures against formula advertising? Adverse vaccine reactions DO happen. It isn't like they make that part up.

I'm a strong breastfeeding advocate. I'm strongly against infant circumcision and the mainstream parenting methods of crying it out, put your baby in a baby jail and go back to work and get on with your life. Do you have another forum to recommend that would welcome me with those views that doesn't also welcome the vaccination conspiracists?

I'm not arguing with you about the vaccination forums. I never go there for just that reason. But I do believe you are being unfair to characterize the entire site as vile, 48 forums that I counted, simply for one issue. I also don't go into the spirituality site. No sense making myself crazy with a bunch of woo woos.

 

[Pantastic]

I think the good that can be done at mothering.com from the other issues I mentioned above outweighs the very few people that are choosing not to vaccinate. How many babies lives would be saved around the world if the formula companies actually abided by the WHO strictures against formula advertising? Adverse vaccine reactions DO happen. It isn't like they make that part up.

Will you still think the same when the level of vaccination falls below the level required for what is known as 'herd immunity', and then there is an epidemic of the disease in question? Remember, vaccination protects not only the child receiving it, but everyone else by preventing widespread outbreaks. If a vaccine is given at age 1, every single child under 1 is vulnerable to that infection and relies on 'herd immunity' to be protected. When there is a measles epidemic and thousands of children die, become permanently deaf, lose limbs, sustain neurological damage and other terrible consequences, what will you say then?
The incidence and severity of vaccine reactions falls into insignificance next to the awful effects of the disease against which they protect.

And though breast feeding is preferable to formula feed, mothers should not be made to feel guilty because they are unable to breastfeed, or choose not to. Formula feed is safe and healthy.

 

[gethane]

And though breast feeding is preferable to formula feed, mothers should not be made to feel guilty because they are unable to breastfeed, or choose not to. Formula feed is safe and healthy.

Ok, this I have a huge problem with. Formula feed isn't safe and healthy. If you formula feed from birth, your baby is TWENTY PERCENT more likely to die within the first year. If a few woo woo don't vaccinate, do you think MY baby is 20% more likely to die? No, I really don't think so.

At any rate, I'm not arguing about those that don't vaccinate. I took offense simply at calling an entire site vile because of one issue, in one forum of 48.

I don't think not vaccinating is a good idea. However, I'm not going to right off all the good info mothering.com DOES provide on breastfeeding and circumcision because of a relative few people that advocate educating yourself and deciding for yourself on vaccinating your child. Let me say again, I DON"T AGREE with them. But calling an entire site vile for that is wrong. It's like calling JREF vile for what's his name's horrific views on American women.

Edit, I got the stat in the top paragraph wrong. Breastfed babies are 20% less likely to die, not the other way around.

 

[gethane]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61281-2004May2.html

Based on the findings, the researchers estimated that about 720 infant deaths would be prevented annually if all American women breastfed their babies for the first year, the researchers said.

I don't think there's any research that suggests that if those few people who aren't vaccinating, did, then 720 deaths in the US would be prevented.

Again, I'm not arguing those people are correct. I'm saying there ARE more important issues, and breastfeeding is one of those.