US: democracy vs republic

GnaGnaMan

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I have a question about this phrase: "The United States was founded as a republic, not a democracy."

I think my first reaction was to go the dictionary but there does not appear to be a special US definition of those words. A bit more googling reveals that the phrase has its origin in the federalist papers. At the time, republic and democracies hardly existed and the words had not yet received their current meaning.

What I don't get it is why the phrase - centuries later - keeps being thrown around as if it had a sensible contemporary meaning. What are kids in the US taught about the subject?
 
I think generally we are taught its a democratic, federal, constitutional republic.

Democracy in 18th century America was more or less synonymous with mob rule, so the framers were generally very adamant that the US would not be a democracy.

I think republic is more accurate but it has come to mean something different than it did in the 18th century. In the 18th century it generally meant a sort of mixed government with features of monarchy, aristocracy, and democracy. Now it just means "not a monarchy." The president acts as a sort of king or executive, the senate was meant to act as a sort of aristocracy(the were originally appointed by the state and were insulated from popular opinion somewhat) and the house was meant to the be the democratic element.

Democracy is not accurate unless you add a modifier like, "liberal" or "constitutional" as there are significant limits on popular voting.

Federal generally means that the individual state retain some sovereignty. Most self described federal governments came about when independent polities joined together in some sort of union but didn't want to give up all there rights. The alternative is unitary, which is most nations.

Most of these phrases do have sensible contemporary meanings. In the US, "republic" still retains some of its 18th century meaning that has mostly been lost elsewhere on account of the Commies and Ayotollahs misusing it.
 
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I don't know that the claim is that popular. I see it from time to time, but I can't recall where or in what context.

I find questions like this, where a hypothetical person is hypothesized to have said a thing, and we're supposed to figure out what that person meant by it, to be profoundly intractable and annoying.

If GnaGnaMan were to point us to a specific individual, who said that thing in a specific context, we could examine the context and question the individual, and perhaps learn something interesting about what they meant.
 
Trebuchet said:
The current popularity of the claim is due solely to the fact that the party making it has "republic" in its name and their rivals have the other.
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I hear it a lot more as an explanation of the Electoral College system versus a popular vote to elect the president. "Its OK because we're a republic not a democracy!"
 
Republics are a type of democracy. Those who use the phrase mean "direct republic", but they don't know that and they're trying to appear more clever than their actual knowledge allows them to.
 
ahhell said:
In the US, "republic" still retains some of its 18th century meaning[...]
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Does it, though?
The dichotomy of republic vs democracy seems to pop up only in the context of what the US is. The special definitions used in these discussions don't seem to be applied to other countries or in other contexts (afaict).
Merriam-Webster does not mention any archaic definitions.

that has mostly been lost elsewhere on account of the Commies and Ayotollahs misusing it.
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How so?
 
GnaGnaMan said:
Does it, though?
The dichotomy of republic vs democracy seems to pop up only in the context of what the US is. The special definitions used in these discussions don't seem to be applied to other countries or in other contexts (afaict).
Merriam-Webster does not mention any archaic definitions.


How so?
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They started using it to describe their governments which were generally autocratic and in no way representative and thus not really republics in the old sense of the word and there are a number of other dictionaries and sources of information.
Belz... said:
Republics are a type of democracy. Those who use the phrase mean "direct republic", but they don't know that and they're trying to appear more clever than their actual knowledge allows them to.
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A republic is not necessarily a democracy.
 
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I've been seeing this a lot lately from Trumptards, people whom I once considered to be above average intelligence who now suddenly can't comprehend that "Republic" and "Democracy" are not mutually exclusive.
 
ahhell said:
A republic is not necessarily a democracy.
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Ok I'm willing to hear your explanation for that.

A democracy is power in the hands of the 'demos', that is, not just the aristocracy or a single individual, but citizens at large. That doesn't necessarily mean everyone, since it depends on how you define citizen, and the ancient Athenians would surely disagree on what that is. Republics use representatives to do the work in the name of the demos. How can that not be a democracy?
 
The USA is a Democratic Republic

This is not to be confused with countries that actually use that term in their official names (such as Algeria, Congo, Ethiopia, North Korea, Laos, and Nepal, which are in reality undemocratic hybrid or authoritarian regimes.

The USA is a democracy only in as much as the representatives of its two Houses of Congress are elected by popular vote. The Presidency is elected by a flawed system that allows the winner to have more votes cast for his/her opponent.

But make no mistake, the US Democracy is deeply flawed, and the Senate is the most flawed of all. The fact that far more people voted for Democrat Senators than Republican Senators, but the Republicans hold a majority in the Senate is down to representation that is heavily weighted in favour of states with low populations. Every one of the 50 states have two Senators - Wyoming has two with a population of less than 600,000, while California also has two with a population of 40 million. If the Senate were proportionally represented, the Democrats would have a very big majority.

ETA: Some figures. IF the Senate was Elected by popular vote, in the 2018 it would be...

Democrats 59 seats (58.8%)
Republicans 40 seats (40.3%)
Independents 1 seat (0.9%)
 
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ahhell said:
A republic is not necessarily a democracy.
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Republic: a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch.

I'm unsure how a republic can not be a democracy. How can the people hold ultimate power if not by democracy? Don't misunderstand me, lots of countries call themselves a republic that aren't.
 
lobosrul5 said:
Republic: a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch.

I'm unsure how a republic can not be a democracy. How can the people hold ultimate power if not by democracy? Don't misunderstand me, lots of countries call themselves a republic that aren't.
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I'm not sure that the consensus on the definitions are that great.

From what I understand, a Republic is one where the head of state is not a Monarch or other titled person and a Democracy is one where the people make the laws or decide who makes the laws.

With many of the systems of government around the world, it can be difficult to decide whether either word applies or not.
 
lobosrul5 said:
Republic: a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch.

I'm unsure how a republic can not be a democracy. How can the people hold ultimate power if not by democracy? Don't misunderstand me, lots of countries call themselves a republic that aren't.
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1a(1) : a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president

(2) : a political unit (such as a nation) having such a form of government

b(1) : a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law

(2) : a political unit (such as a nation) having such a form of government

c : a usually specified republican government of a political unit the French Fourth Republic
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https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/republic
 
smartcooky said:
But make no mistake, the US Democracy is deeply flawed, and the Senate is the most flawed of all.
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You say flawed, I say that's the beauty of the system, some power is reserved for the less populated areas of the country.

Gives Iowa and New Hampshire some attention they wouldn't otherwise get.
 
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