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US and Israel's 'common cause'

Cleopatra

Philosopher
Joined
Mar 15, 2003
Messages
9,079
This comes from BBC.com.

I have picked some points but it's better to read the whole article by clicking Here.( BBC.News.com)

Bold Fonts are mine.

[...] It is the language of war against terrorism, used for both Iraq and for the Palestinians.

But are the two conflicts the same?

"The Americans and the Iraqis don't have a dispute about land, they don't have a political dispute about sharing the same area," says Israeli defence correspondent Alex Fishman.

"In Israel, we've got an historical, cultural dispute, it's a completely different story, you can't compare it."

Common language

So if the conflicts are different, why is the language the same?

Suicide bombings have certainly contributed.

They have reinforced Ariel Sharon's view that Palestinian violence is terrorism rather than a national struggle against occupation.


And, says analyst Akiva Eldar, they have also suited his political agenda.

"The suicide bombings is something that made it even easier for Sharon to sell this equation that we and you the Americans are in the same boat," he says.

"Because 11 September was a suicide bombing. Both in the US and in Israel it helped people to paint the conflict in black and white."
[...]

[...]Regime change

But it is more than the way the US and Israel describe their conflicts; they also talk about the same solutions.

Regime change, for instance, is viewed by many as good not only for the Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, but also for the Palestinian Leader Yasser Arafat[...]

Israeli counter terrorism expert Boaz Ganor witnessed the transition in American thinking while he was there on a lecture tour that coincided with 9/11.

"Of course I had been asked difficult questions, like how dare Israel use targeted killings, they called it assassinations," he says.

"After 9/11 this question was not asked even once.

"Because the same day of 9/11 President Bush said we are going to hunt them, and what is hunting them if not targeted killings?"


Tough image

So does this mean Israel is directly influencing Washington's strategy for its war against terrorism?
[...]

"I am sure that Bush looks at Sharon and says to himself: listen, this is a tough guy, look what he is doing there, he is succeeding, the Israelis like it, the international community is not really too upset about this," says Akiva Eldar.

Peace by force

What seems clear now is that Israel and the US increasingly have the same approach to dealing with conflict: one based on force and deterrence, rather than diplomacy and international law.

And here Akiva Eldar thinks there is a direct connection.

He says key policy advisors around George Bush do see America's battle with Iraq and Israel's battle with the Palestinians as part of the same war.

"They have actually suggested that Israel will help the United States to take over the Middle East," he says.

"They were sitting in think tanks that believed that you don't even try to appease or satisfy the Arabs, you reach peace by force which means you impose it... you don't make concessions to people you don't trust, and that puts them and Sharon in the same party."

That is a controversial view, one which few Israelis or Americans would accept.

But it is one which may be strengthened by a US strike against Iraq, at least in the eyes of Arabs and Muslims.
 
So, I wonder, who is using who, here?

Do you see a common cause?

Do you think that this connection may cause problems to USA on the long-run ( Make the country a target of the Arabic terrorism)?

And the most harsh question: Do you really consider Palestinians Terrorists or Freedom Fighters?
 
Cleopatra

And the most harsh question: Do you really consider Palestinians Terrorists or Freedom Fighters?
they are both. had they been freedom fighters only (sans terrorism), it would have been much easier to empathize with them; had they been terrorists only, there would have been no ambiguity.
 
Common Cause??

Peace by force

What seems clear now is that Israel and the US increasingly have the same approach to dealing with conflict: one based on force and deterrence, rather than diplomacy and international law.

When diplomacy fails (Oslo, 1441) what is left?? Diplomacy HAS been tried - and hasn't worked.

And here Akiva Eldar thinks there is a direct connection.

He says key policy advisors around George Bush do see America's battle with Iraq and Israel's battle with the Palestinians as part of the same war.

"They have actually suggested that Israel will help the United States to take over the Middle East," he says.

"They were sitting in think tanks that believed that you don't even try to appease or satisfy the Arabs, you reach peace by force which means you impose it... you don't make concessions to people you don't trust, and that puts them and Sharon in the same party."

These are sweeping statements that are not supported by the facts. That last paragraph is especially suspect as, w/ the exception of Afghanistan and Iraq, the US hasn't imposed much of anything on other "problematic" Arab states (Iran, Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan).
There only "appears" to be a connection - this month, this year.

That is a controversial view, one which few Israelis or Americans would accept.
Yea, cause it's a fantasy not supported by the facts.

But it is one which may be strengthened by a US strike against Iraq, at least in the eyes of Arabs and Muslims.
No doubt, as the Arab "street" isn't much troubled by facts, as any visit to MEMRI amply demonstrates.

Where do YOU actually stand on this issue Cleopatra?? You are Egyptian, yes? Are you a Muslim? Do you support your government's stance vis a vis Israel? Iraq?

Do you think;
1. Israel is responsible for all of the nastiness in Palestine
2. Both sides share the blame
3. Israel is the victim in this struggle

Do you think the US;
1. Is a rapacious hegemon bent on dominating the region
2. Has a genuine issue to deal w/ in Iraq but is going about it the wrong way.
3. Taking appropriate action

Regards,
 
Cleopatra said:
And the most harsh question: Do you really consider Palestinians Terrorists or Freedom Fighters?

It seems to me that the Palestinians are fighting for independence, not freedom. (Although some may have freedom as a goal, I honestly doubt that freedom will be the result of a success in their war for independence.)

MattJ
 
Barkhorn1x, I am not Egyptian ( Cleopatra wasn't Egyptian as well...)

I am Israeli-Greek, born in Israel, so I am with the bad guys don't worry. :)

But I am not that... bad, I think that Palestinians deserve a State although the methods they use to realize this cause are certainly questionable.
 
Hmm...

Cleopatra said:
Barkhorn1x, I am not Egyptian ( Cleopatra wasn't Egyptian as well...)

I am Israeli-Greek, born in Israel, so I am with the bad guys don't worry. :)

But I am not that... bad, I think that Palestinians deserve a State although the methods they use to realize this cause are certainly questionable.

I made some assumptions - sorry - and we know what happens when one does that. ;)
Oh, and I am well aware that Cleopatra (the VIIth I believe) was not Egyptian - she was of the Ptolemy dynasty, descended from one of Alex the Greats generals.

I think the Palestinians deserve a state as well but their methods are reprehensible and will only serve to deny them the very thing that they want.

Regards,
Barkhorn.
 

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