Unitarian Universalism part two

[Mariah]

Several months ago I began a thread (not as Mariah, but as SherryA) on Unitarian Universalism. I had just begun attending one and was quite impressed, but was concerned about woo lapping at the edges.

I received many thoughtful, helpful responses. Listening, Upchurch? You were especially helpful, as you were attending a UU yourself.

I'm reporting back.

I am now at a point where I can say with authority that there is an over-abundance of woo. Yes, enough that it is bothering me. A lot.

Understand that my UU has a building and a full-time minister. I'm a fully participating member, money-wise. We/they are about to build another structure. My dilemma is: how much do I want to finance the very thing Randi and the rest of us are against?

Oh, I'd love to know what Randi thinks. I feel sure he wouldn't go for any kind of churchy thing, whatever its creed, or lack thereof. Those of you who know him might want to speculate on it.

The intellectual component in UU is still there in force. The social aspect is good. But the woo woo is too too.

I believe it was Crimesearch who said if he wanted to hear about Reincarnation, Reiki, astrology, etc. the UU was the first place he'd go.

Let me define what I mean by woo. I do not mean meditation, yoga (for excercise and centering purposes) and god language, which can be abstract and mean virtually anything.

I do mean astrology, Tarot, spiritualism, divination, and the belief that quantum physics supports New Age flummery. This is not something I hear from the pulpit--yet, but it is everywhere in the conversations of the flock.

I'm now thinking I don't even like the idea that our building hosts the United Religions Iniative (whose purpose is to find common ground among religions to one day put an end to religiously-motivated violence) which I attend. Why? Because one of the board members is a spiritualist, and at least part of the motivation of attendees is to spread their particular gospels.

I'd like to know if anyone from the previous discussion has had similar or contrary experiences with UU in the intervening months, or if anyone else has had experience with this they'd like to share.

 

[Ducky]

I'm now thinking I don't even like the idea that our building hosts the United Religions Iniative (whose purpose is to find common ground among religions to one day put an end to religiously-motivated violence) which I attend. Why? Because one of the board members is a spiritualist, and at least part of the motivation of attendees is to spread their particular gospels.

I'd like to know if anyone from the previous discussion has had similar or contrary experiences with UU in the intervening months, or if anyone else has had experience with this they'd like to share.

I have the common ground: God doesn't exist. Stop killing in his name.

Ok no seriously...

I signed up with the ULC to preside over a friend's wedding (that never happened) and I can say I share your disdain for the propogation of woo.

I would think there are other organizations that would be great for a sunday activity both intellectualy, and socially. Join a museum, or look for common activities for you and your family to participate in on Sundays (or whatever day is the "religious" day.)

My fiancee and I are not having a religious wedding, and we considered the UU, but basically we decided it would be a bit hypocritical to have a UU ceremony when we don't buy the general beliefs of the flock.

We go to the museums and visit dog breeders and play with puppies or something else on Sunday.

If/when we have kids, I plan on taking them to the Museum of Natural History, or possibly the Art museums and have them join the weekend activites for the public there. When I was little I used to go to the DIA, or the DSC for activities planned for kids.

 

[Mariah]

Thanks, Fowlsound. I love your suggestions and may do just as you suggest.

 

[Ducky]

Thanks, Fowlsound. I love your suggestions and may do just as you suggest.

THanks

Just to clarify, the DSC and DIA are the Detroit Institute of the Arts, and the Detroit Science Center. I live in the twin cities now, so there's actually quite a bit more to do with museums or secular institutes.

 

[Dogdoctor]

I used to be a Unitarian way back when I was a child. They were pretty non woo almost a non religion. Many members were atheists/agnostics who wanted to belong to a group. Then they became UU and with it more religion. However I did not attend religious services with UU till I went to college. I went to a UU church in Colorado. It seemed pretty much like a typical Christian church except they did discuss writings that weren't the bible or at all Christian. They did have a sermon, sang hymns and passed the donation plate an lots of other activities typical of a Christian religion but no non religious woo at all (1980's). I have not attended any further UU related activities since then. I wonder if the woo is regional?

 

[Mariah]

Well, Dogdoctor, I've heard that all UU churches are different, to begin with. Also, New England churches are more Christian than churches in the south where I live. I suppose one reason for this is if you're in any way Christian you have so many places to be one here in the Bible Belt, why choose UU.

I should say that my UU is made up largely of retired scientists and other academics. I live in a retirement town in the mountains of a southern state and a huge portion of our population consists of people from the northeast. I don't think UU woo woo is regional. I do think that because UU is so open it takes on the flavor of the general population which is, alas, so wooful of late. Also, the humanists and rationalists tend to be old and near death while the younger ones who are bringing the growth tend to be New Agey.

The "sermons" are usually highly intellectual and never woo, unless woo for you is God language or talk about "that transcending mystery and wonder" that is the basis of the Unitarian creedless creed. I've never heard a pulpit speaker, our minister, any of the many retired ministers in the congregation, or guests talk about astrology, Tarot, Reiki, or anything related. But in conversations and in some activities, these things are featured. When there's a program on a New Age topic, it's a big draw, not only within the UU, but the larger community. (And I'm helping pay for the facility that's used, you see.)

My problem is not so much that I hear snippets of conversation about these New Age topics, which I might also hear at Christian churches or anywhere else people gather, but that I, by honoring my financial pledge, participating in and planning programs, am promoting it. And it's not as if you can really speak out against it with boldness and clarity. In theory you can, but if you come out as a skeptic, you're constantly either pissing people off or hurting their feelings. They can be pretty huffy when they even think you're not in their league. And yet it's impossible for the issue not to come up. That's what UUs do is talk about belief. And if enough people just keep quiet, the others think you're acquiesing to what they say.


Examples: many people in my congregation were ALL excited about "What the Bleep Do We Know?" A Jungian psychiatrist there tells about the Hundredth Monkey, unaware it has been debunked. Oh, I could go on and on, but I won't.

Suffice it to say it is much more pervasive than I thought.


Also, there's this issue: certain ideas, say, conservative Christian ideas, tend to be pooh poohed, while New Age ones are given the "yeah boy!"

*WWRD? What would Randi do?

 

[Dogdoctor]

Well I have never met the Amazing One but feel pretty certain he would not support that church. However I don't speak for him. I went to the UU church in Colorado as a way to hopefully meet some young eligible women to socialize with but there were few of them (mostly older people)and prospects seemed to be fairly unimpressive in the critical thinking department. All of the other activities seemed to be related to fund raising or community service were not woo related and all older folks mostly so it was back to the campus for me.

 

[kmortis]

Well, Dogdoctor, I've heard that all UU churches are different, to begin with. Also, New England churches are more Christian than churches in the south where I live. I suppose one reason for this is if you're in any way Christian you have so many places to be one here in the Bible Belt, why choose UU.

I have a dear friend that works for the UUA (the publishing/religious ed portion of the UU) and just from the snippets that she tells me, it's an institutional thing to be very woo. My friend, who practices quite a bit of woo herself, is astonished at the total level that she sees on a daily basis there.

Also, I used to live in Massachusetts and attended a UU a few times, and between that, and the experiences I've heard from other friends that are/were UU, the MA UU churches aren't noticably anymore "Christian" than the ones where I currently live. Granted, my sample size is fairly small, and I do know that there are plenty of cases where the local UU and the local UCC teamed up, so....

I have been fairly disappointed in my dealings with the UU. They preach tolerance and acceptance....to anything that isn't Christian or overtly skeptical. Kind of reminds me of the pagans I've dealt with over the years.

 

[Mariah]

Kmortis wrote:

"it's an institutional thing to be very woo."

Thanks, Kmortis. That was really very helpful. That's just the kind of inside information I couldn't have received any other way.

I'd also be curious to know if we are in agreement as to what constitutes woo. It's very telling that your friend who practices some woo is astonished at what she sees on a daily basis. Boy would I like to hear from her.

If you have the time and inclination, I'd like to hear more details of the snippets you received from your friend and your own experience.

If not, muchas gracias for your reply!

 

[kmortis]

Kmortis wrote:

"it's an institutional thing to be very woo."

Thanks, Kmortis. That was really very helpful. That's just the kind of inside information I couldn't have received any other way.

I'd also be curious to know if we are in agreement as to what constitutes woo. It's very telling that your friend who practices some woo is astonished at what she sees on a daily basis. Boy would I like to hear from her.

If you have the time and inclination, I'd like to hear more details of the snippets you received from your friend and your own experience.

If not, muchas gracias for your reply!

I think I can sum up why I think the heirarchy of the UU is woo in one word, Reiki. They had (and think they still do have) a Reiki workshop at the offices.

They have weekly "Sensitivity" training sessions and yet still have black members kept out of General Assembly meetings (this really happend this year in Ft. Worth). Ok, so that's not necessarily woo, but sickly funny nonetheless.

i'll see if my friend can give me some better examples of "woo-ness".

 

[Mariah]

i'll see if my friend can give me some better examples of "woo-ness".

I'd appreciate that very much.

Yes, I see what you're saying about Reiki. I do believe a lot of individual UUs have it as well.

I just can't believe that about their keeping blacks out of GA. (I mean, I know you didn't make it up.) The UUs???? When they have Sinkford who is African American? I always thought they went out of their way to be--or at least to seem--the opposite.


I'll tell you what has me miffed and confused. I went to my minister to discuss the woo factor hoping he might tell me it's a small deal, and in the context of our conversation he strongly implied we might ask a local spiritualist we all know who gives classes to come in and talk, not in the pulpit but in a meeting. Now this was right after he said we had to be careful who we asked to speak in the pulpit. (The implication being, I think, it couldn't be a conservative Christian, for example.)

 

[Upchurch]

Listening, Upchurch?

...hm? I'M AWAKE! yes, what?

[fquote]Understand that my UU has a building and a full-time minister. I'm a fully participating member, money-wise. We/they are about to build another structure. My dilemma is: how much do I want to finance the very thing Randi and the rest of us are against?[/fquote]The JREF, as I understand it, is set up to educate people on truth, or lack thereof, of testable claims. Randi has often said that he does not challenge religious claims because they are (often) not testable. That is, he focuses on the action, not the cause.

I don't think Randi is for or against church, per se. Churches often server a very useful, non-paranormal function in society. I, personally, feel no hypocrisy in supporting both the JREF and the Unitarian Church, which specifically makes no claims.
[fquote]The intellectual component in UU is still there in force. The social aspect is good. But the woo woo is too too. [/fquote]Yeah, I ran into that recently too. They're offering a class on "Becoming more psychic through your angels" along with the classes on Buddhism and the like. My wife won't let me go. She thinks I'll cause a scene. But, it is up to each person to find their own way. If this is what they feel they need to find that path, that is up to them. If, however, they make a claim that be tested, that is another matter (and part of the process).
[fquote]I do mean astrology, Tarot, spiritualism, divination, and the belief that quantum physics supports New Age flummery. This is not something I hear from the pulpit--yet, but it is everywhere in the conversations of the flock.[/fquote]It is a fine line between being tolerant of others beliefs and properly expressing your own. If there is a higher woo level in the congregation than you are comfortable with, maybe this particular congregation is not a good match for you.

As I mentioned above, there is some of that going on in my church, but not so much that I am uncomfortable with it. In fact, my wife and I find it a source of some amusement.

 

[c4ts]

Yeah, I ran into that recently too. They're offering a class on "Becoming more psychic through your angels" along with the classes on Buddhism and the like. My wife won't let me go. She thinks I'll cause a scene.

And another evil A-Theist conspiracy is thwarted once again!

 

[Mariah]

Thanks, Upchurch. I have found I can always count on vous.

I most certainly don't think you (or I) are being hypocritcal, no no. Also I keep monoriting my filter to make sure I'm not being jaundiced and judgmental. After all, if the UU said "you can be among us, but you can't believe in psychics and Reiki," it would then be violating its central tenet: not telling you what to believe or what not to believe, yet, it is perfectly okay to diss conservative Christians (I live in a red state) but no, not woo. Still, I don't have too much of a problem with that inconsistency; after all, the UU's at least try to be open. We'd be gods if we didn't have some inconsistencies.

My problem is with the UUs endorsement. It does not endorse fundamentalist Christianity, but it does endorse New Age. I find that many people (certainly not you) are still in an ivory tower about all this. See, I don't think it's so amusing because I have been immersed in it to such a point I can't deny that it is gaining a foothold. I don't mean to make a huge deal of it; we're not talking about a terrorist threat here, but I share Randi's disgust at some of this stuff because it is plain unethical. Spiritualism is the worst, in my estimation. Most people don't know its history. It sucks. Yet my minister, in the same breath, says we have to be careful who we invite into our space (ie, not a fundamentalist) but spoke of inviting a local spiritualist. I help PAY for this facility where the spiritualist would be embraced. She, and other woos, can't afford their own space so they come here. I am supporting the spread of spiritualism. This woman is nice, charismatic, engaging, intelligent. She is giving classes in the community. My minister fairly glowed when he mentioned her name. (And he's a scientist.)

I came to JREF after a nearly three year book tour in which I had tons of face time with these people. It is entrenched more than most people know.

Also, I should say that my UU, based on what I've heard, actually has minimal woo. It does concern me that Kmortis reports it's an institutional thing, ie. Reiki etc. at the headquarters. If it gets too too woo woo, I'll be ashamed of my association with it.

Thanks for the advice and for being such a good sounding board. I always appreciate it!

 

[Upchurch]

yet, it is perfectly okay to diss conservative Christians (I live in a red state) but no, not woo.

Blue county in a red state, but yeah. It's funny how liberal religion seems to translate into liberal politics.

My church must be a little different. I've yet to hear anyone diss much of anything. The one exception is the sermon that dealt with gay marriage, which only goes to further your point because it was decidedly pro.
[fquote]My problem is with the UUs endorsement. It does not endorse fundamentalist Christianity, but it does endorse New Age.[/fquote]Okay, there I have to agree with you to a point. It certainly appears that my UU is endourcing the New Age psychic angels whatever, but it also has classes on Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity, yoga, and various forms of philosophy. While I frown on the psychic angel nonsense, given in the context of the whole, it is easier to swallow. Still, as belief systems go, it hardly deserves to be on the same footing as the others.
[fquote]Yet my minister, in the same breath, says we have to be careful who we invite into our space (ie, not a fundamentalist) but spoke of inviting a local spiritualist. [/fquote]Whoa. Slow down. Wait just a minute.

Your minister purposefully excludes a certain view point? Specifically, a sect that has a very large representation here in the US? I actually have more of a problem with that than I do with inclusion of New Age whooie.

Even though I don't agree with either, I think the point of having an open non-creedal church is to provide an insight into all perspectives (or as many as possible) in order to allow the individual to find the path that is best for them. This minister sounds like he is making the decision that fundamentalist Christianity is definitely the wrong path for you.
[fquote]Also, I should say that my UU, based on what I've heard, actually has minimal woo. It does concern me that Kmortis reports it's an institutional thing, ie. Reiki etc. at the headquarters. If it gets too too woo woo, I'll be ashamed of my association with it.[/fquote]Well, take some comfort in the fact that "headquarters" has no say on what happens in any specific church. Don't put too much emphesis on what the national UU organization promotes. In terms of actual power, they are at the far end of the spectrum from, say, the Pope.

quote:

---

Originally posted by c4ts
And another evil A-Theist conspiracy is thwarted once again!

---

The sad part is, she's right. I probably would have made a scene.

 

[Mariah]

Thanks again, Upchurch. I'm on my way now to host a casual meeting at UU where African American spirituals will be presented and discussed. This is a great love of mine, the spirituals--the arts that the quest for meaning inspires, especially when it comes from great suffering as is the case with that particular music.

Your points are well taken. What if I ask Randi what he thinks? That might be fun.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

I've just learned the term "Universal Unitarian" because we have a member in our Toastmaster's group.

I do wonder, in their freedoms of viewpoints, if they would allow skeptics at their pulpit. One day Reiki, another day psychics, yet another day with an atheist or skeptic talking on critical thinking.

I looked at some UU member stats, and saw that nearly 20% were atheist. A smaller percent considered themselves Wiccan/Pagan. Yet even an atheist can believe in psychics?

I would welcome a place that celebrated all viewpoints, woo or non-woo. If I, as a an atheist skeptic humanist were welcomed openly -then I would embrace a little wooism. I would hope the woos would accept my non woodom, and I in turn accept some of their wooism in turn. Agree to disagree and still accept each other. This would be a true test of UU philosophy.

I would hope that someday all woos and non-woos, religious and non-religous could someday live together peacefully.