Unconscious Racism

[Blue Monk]

Can one be a racist or at the very least harbor racist beliefs or feelings and not know it?

Many times racist feelings are obvious but many times they are far more subtle. Judging another’s remarks can sometimes fall into gray areas where actual meaning, or hidden meaning can be hard to discern.

But my question is how confidently can anyone say, “I am not a racist.”

In my youth (yes I still remember some) I had no problem making this statement. I was raised that way. My parents were both vehemently anti-Racist and I learned mostly through example, in that I never saw my parents treat anyone without respect.

So it seemed natural to flatly claim I was not a racist as that is what I truly believed and it most certainly is what I aspired to.

Then one day I heard a story that forever changed my certainty on this issue. It made me reexamine my beliefs and I no longer am as confident in my assertions. This is a good thing.

It was years ago on 60 Minutes or some similar television news magazine. The subject was a woman who was a profiler for lawyers who helped them select juries. The actual focus was her battle with cancer but within the piece she related a story that obviously touched me as I remember it to this day.

She had been hired by the defense attorneys who were representing Indian activists from the American Indian Movement who were facing charges stemming from the events surrounding their occupation of Wounded Knee in 1973. Obviously concern over potential jurors racism would be a high priority.

She told of one potential juror, who was a very pleasant and very nice God fearing elderly woman whose house was situated between the reservation and the town. This woman was well known and well liked by the Indians as she had always been very warm and compassionate.

I’m repeating this from memory so forgive me if I paraphrase a bit for readability.

When being questioned the woman was asked if she harbored any prejudices against Native Americans and of course the woman replied no and that in fact she was quite friendly with them and considered many of them to be her friends.

When asked to describe her relations with the Indians she elaborated with antidotal incidents, one of which was how she often provided lodging for them in her barn. Many of the Indians had no cars and had to walk to town and many times they would time it wrong and it would get dark or the weather would go bad but they all knew that this kindly lady would put them up.

Then, according to the profiler’s account, she asked this elderly lady what she thought at the time was a rather innocuous question.

“What if they had been white?”

Again according to the profiler’s account, the entire court was startled by the elderly woman’s reaction.

At first she tried to speak but couldn’t and then she started crying.

Why?

Because if they had been white they would have slept in the house.

They did accept this woman as a juror because she clearly wanted to do what was right and was obviously honest enough to face an unpleasant truth about herself, something not many do so easily. They assumed that when faced with how easily a person can unconsciously harbor racist feelings that she would be determined not to let any influence her decision.

An interesting story and food for thought.

From an intellectual stand point I can easily dismiss racism as the rubbish it is. As a concept it fails spectacularly on all levels, culturally, scientifically and biologically.

But the true evil of racism is that what one understands rationally does not always match what is truly in one’s heart.

I would still say that I am not a racist, as I’m sure many of you would, but since hearing this story I have never been able to say that with as much conviction.

And that is a good thing.

Can anyone truly and unequivocally say, “I am not a racist?”

 

[crimresearch]

Of several definitions for racism, I found that most gave a 2 part entry, along the lines of 'the belief that there are different characteristics linked to race, AND the belief that some races are inferior...'.

I dare say that almost everyone would admit that different races have different characteristics, as evinced by epicantheal folds, sickle cell traits, ratio of different types of muscle fiber, amount of melanin, etc.
And society dictates that when we examine socio-economic status, educational achievement, prison population, scores on standardized tests, or other indicators, that we see members of each race being over or under represented in predictable ways.

However, believing these difference to be *true* for each race, and believing that these differences prove a causal link between a certain race and its *inferiority* are two different things.

If one accepts the first but not the latter, that can make the difference between thinking and acting as a racist, unconsciously or otherwise.
OTOH, those who believe the latter, even with all good intentions, can definitely act in 'helpful' ways that are still racist.

 

[rikzilla]

Can anyone truly and unequivocally say, “I am not a racist?”

No. But it helps instead to say what you are. "I am a human"

We are all humans, and as such should treat each other as members of the same ultimate tribe. I try to remember that, so that much of my upbringing in a rural, and very segregated, part of Arkansas can be overcome.

My time in the Army helped alot in overcoming my own early racism. It was the first time I ever lived with and got drunk with black guys. Who told me repeatedly in sloppy drunkenese that if the Russians and East Germans ever attacked they'd be happy to watch my back. They were good men, and I rarely think of my Army buds as black or white since we were all basically GREEN!

When I think of those Army guys in Iraq, braving the roadside bombs and insurgent attacks....they do not seem to me to be black or white....they are Americans first, last, and always.

-z

 

[crimresearch]

Originally posted by Blue Monk:

Can anyone truly and unequivocally say, “I am not a racist?”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rikzilla replied:

No. But it helps instead to say what you are. "I am a human"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

So are you saying that every single person on the planet actually believes that some races are innately inferior, and knowingly acts to oppress those races?

Or have you come up with a diferent definition of racism that encompasses everyone?

 

[Skeptic]

Re: Re: Unconscious Racism

Indeed so. There's nothing like living with people of group X to stop prjudice about it.

The whole "African culture IS TOO superior to European culture!" thing or "Oh my God, you cannot say black IQ is lower!" outrage is misguided: because nobody ever became a racist, or stopped being one, based on abstract things like which culture gave more to humanity in general, or which ethnic group has a higher average IQ. That's just the excuse used to justify it.

I mean, jews are reupted to have a high IQ; did this ever stop anybody from hating them? No; if anything, it just "proved" how cunning and conspiratorial they are. If tomorrow new research proves black average IQ is actually 150, the reaction about "We knew it--so THAT'S why they have so much low cunning!" from the KKK & co. can be easily predicted.

Once you live with black people, and know black people personally, you quickly simply stop caring about such question as "What the black IQ is". Who CARES if it is 10 points lower, or 10 points higher, or the same, as the white IQ? Who CARES if Rameses II was a greater or lesser figure than, say, Socrates? Does this matter one whit to what black people you know are like? No.

 

[Skeptic]

Can anyone truly and unequivocally say, “I am not a racist?”

BRIAN: I am not a racist!
(Silence)
WOMAN: Only a true racist denies his racism...
BRIAN: What? What choice does that leave me, then? All right, I AM a racist!
CROWD: A racist! A racist!

(Sorry).

 

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Blue Monk:

Can anyone truly and unequivocally say, “I am not a racist?”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rikzilla replied:

No. But it helps instead to say what you are. "I am a human"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

So are you saying that every single person on the planet actually believes that some races are innately inferior, and knowingly acts to oppress those races?

Or have you come up with a diferent definition of racism that encompasses everyone?

No, I'm expressing an opinion that a degree of racial tribalism exists within most if not all people. Sometimes this identity is expressed in negative ways, ie; racism. But most times positively as in forms of cultural pride.

Personally I think it is probable that all people, from time to time, feel and express both these qualities. Thus anyone can express racist attitudes given certain circumstances that may trigger such expression. This happens in various degrees. The stupid, mean, or violent may don KKK robes and be obvious racists...but they're not the only ones. The cabbie who passes up a black fare for a white one in NYC may have rationalized that he's making a smart choice and not a racist one.

We live in a world of glass ceilings, deniable racism. It's not always so obvious and the reverse is also true. My wife is a jazz singer...but she's also white, blonde, blue eyed, and English. She works in what is in essence a truly black American art form. She has many black fans,...who many times express that they like her even though she's "not urban" or "suburban"....and they say that she's doing such a good job singing "our music". These are code words,...and this is a form of racism-lite. I don't think it's said with malice, (she and I feel like we're well liked and accepted), but it is said.

My point is, we all do it....unless we're saints....at least in my own experience I've never known anyone immune to it. I hope you know what I mean...although I'm rambling....

-z

 

[American]

The day may come when one is sued for civil rights for choosing not to date a person of a RACE or GENDER that you are not attracted to. If you can't discriminate who gets to work at your own private company, then why not your private life as well?

That day will come, I predict in europe first and then over here in some left coast state.

 

[Dancing David]

Thanks Rikzilla!

I wanted to post the following story to begin with, and I am glad to have this forum. Having lived in Mexico for four years as a child I became aware that there are two aspects to racism, prejudice and cultural clash. Alot of people are prejudiced and there is a lot of cultural clash, what is important is to be aware of yourself, and be open to discussion of the topic.

Two stories from where I work, a domestic violence shelter in central Illinois, we can house about forty souls altogether, generaly we run a censusus around tirty women and children. Given socio-economic factors in dometic violence, about 35%-75% of our residents are 'black", or would identify themselves that way. As social workers we strive to have a diverse staff, but it is hard, many people who are 'minorities' just aren't hip to social work but we do try.
The domestic violence field is just going through some huge changes too, it started as a grass roots movement and is largely identified with feminism, in fact when I was hired, the human relations manager called all the shelters in Illinois and asked them if they would employ a man as a residential advocate, half said no. So we have alot of values about "the feminist ethic","diversity","inclusiveness" and "consensus". And I don't mean to add feul to conservative fires but sometimes things get turned on thier heads.
Like: About six months after I was changed positions to children's advocate, my coworker came to me to tell me the following story.(She was raised at the Robert Taylor homes in Chicago, went to college and is a very nice person, strong willed and wonderful, proud to be 'black' but not what I would call a racist)
"I am so pissed I could just go off on that Jamie" she started. We all have a hard time relating to Jamie, she is an upperclass white girl, who has a lot of boundary issues and way too much power in our system. So I assume that it is the normal subversion of power in our supposedly power free system.
We had a young man in our shelter one Antwan, he was about eight, had been sexualy abused by his father, and then physicaly abused by a series of of his mother's boyfriends before she came to our shelter. He was a handful at times, but we tried to cut him slack because he had good reason to be angry and defiant. My co-worker LaDonna was the ONLY person he connected with at the shelter, she was the only one he would talk to. I mean he would talk to me if he had to , like the school counselor forced him to, but he would really kick back with LaDonna and tell her the truth.
So she tells me this story, we get all these clothing donation, and Antwan had been playing with a belt from the donations, snapping it around and goofing off with it, since he wasn't trying to hang himself or hit other kids, no biggie. And he is goofing with LaDonna and he pops the belt at her, he like runs off, playing chase me. So she does and she is jokingly making like she is going to remove her belt and pop him back. Lots of laughs and running.
But enter Jamie, she witnesses this, and as she told me personaly "It just made the survivor in me cringe." So she goes to our boss and complains that LaDonna had dome this and threatened no less to call DCFS and file a report. She also went to our boss, which is against the policy of 'talk to the person yourself' because she felt 'intimidated' by LaDonna. Now if you asked Jamie if she was a racist, she will deny it, "I am not a racist". But the reason that she feels intimidated by LaDonna is that Ladonna is black and very strong willed. Jamie has a history of this she says that she is not a racist but guess what out of the three fellow employees that she couldn't get along with , all three are black. Because they don't support her middle class white cultural values and they especvialy don't tolerate Jamie's "victimstance" behaviors.

Second story, we had two staff members resign because of racist remarks at an Administrative Team meeting. Again there are two white women who would tell you that they are not racists ,and would be offended if you said theye were racist. "I live with a black man" one would say. But none the less they are at this team meeting talking about how some black artist is a slut and has the big old lips, etc, etc. And my director and our Human Relations manager both say that they are offended by these statements, that they feel they are racialy motivated and to please stop. To which these two white women respond, "We are not racist", "Get over it". The first person to resign was out sixty year old white receptionist who was taking minutes at the meeting, she was the first to file a grievance and then quit. Then our human relations manager asked for an apology and then filed a grievance and quit. Basical because she was told, that the remarks could not have been racist.

So this is my point:
We have to be aware of cultural clash and try to be open to responding to it.
When someone accuses us of racism , we should be open to the discussion, we don't have to accept it but we should listen.
When we feel that we are responding to cultural clash , we need to address our own issues and responses to it.
When adressing cultural clash we need to focus on the behaviors and not the culture.

Example: 'Blacks' often have a different idea of what constitues a reasonable level of volume in a converstaion, especialy outdoors or in a 'public' situations. So there are times that people in our shelter are talking way too loud for my middle class white sensibility, in fact so loud that I might consider it to be 'intimidating'. So first off, I can ask them to tone it down, but I also have to judge my own reaction and if it is appropriate to the setting. I swear sometimes people are positively yelling at each other, but they are engaging in friendly conversation. Cultural clash, ask them to tone it down but don't label it intimidation.

 

[Dorian Gray]

A reworking:
BRIAN: I am not a racist!
(Silence)
WOMAN: Only a true racist denies his racism...
BRIAN: Well then, tell me: are YOU a racist?
WOMAN: .......


I think that it's possible for a person NOT to be a racist. However, I think it's IMPOSSIBLE for that person's comments, however innocent, to be interpreted as such by some hypersensitive kneejerk with a chip on their shoulder.

Take the story above about the 'Slut with big ol' lips' - I guarantee you that if those same women had been talking about Jagger or Tyler, the black women would have had NO problem with it.

 

[Theodore Kurita]

Re: Re: Re: Unconscious Racism

Indeed so. There's nothing like living with people of group X to stop prjudice about it.

The whole "African culture IS TOO superior to European culture!" thing or "Oh my God, you cannot say black IQ is lower!" outrage is misguided: because nobody ever became a racist, or stopped being one, based on abstract things like which culture gave more to humanity in general, or which ethnic group has a higher average IQ. That's just the excuse used to justify it.

I mean, jews are reupted to have a high IQ; did this ever stop anybody from hating them? No; if anything, it just "proved" how cunning and conspiratorial they are. If tomorrow new research proves black average IQ is actually 150, the reaction about "We knew it--so THAT'S why they have so much low cunning!" from the KKK & co. can be easily predicted.

Once you live with black people, and know black people personally, you quickly simply stop caring about such question as "What the black IQ is". Who CARES if it is 10 points lower, or 10 points higher, or the same, as the white IQ? Who CARES if Rameses II was a greater or lesser figure than, say, Socrates? Does this matter one whit to what black people you know are like? No.

There you go again, "Skeptic" pulling straws again I see.


Well, if you happened to do any reasearch, you would have realized all of what you have just said has been debunked. (The IQ Race Thing):

http://skepdic.com/iqrace.html

 

[Ed]

What about induced racism where none might have existed before? Suppose you are dealing with someone who is in their job because of affarmative action. Might you not wonder about his competance? Or a degree form an A-list university? This really has nothing to do with the person but that government and institutions, by their actions, plant doubt.

 

[Skeptic]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Unconscious Racism

There you go again, "Skeptic" pulling straws again I see.


Well, if you happened to do any reasearch, you would have realized all of what you have just said has been debunked. (The IQ Race Thing):

http://skepdic.com/iqrace.html

And if YOU had done any research, you'd have realized that I know that--and that's not the point.

 

[LostAngeles]

I have a quick story on this too.

The area back east where I lived was generally pretty white bread. An ex of mine was working in the mall, and apparently something had happened with some black customers. I don't recall if it was a good experience or bad, but he went to tell his fellow white co-worker about it and started off with, "The black family that was just in here, they..." and she immediately cut them off with "Don't say 'they'! Don't say 'they'!" Sadly, he didn't ask the little writer what third person plural pronoun he should use.

There's cultural sensitivity and then there's freaking idiocy.

 

[Doghouse Reilly]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Unconscious Racism

There you go again, "Skeptic" pulling straws again I see.


Well, if you happened to do any reasearch, you would have realized all of what you have just said has been debunked. (The IQ Race Thing):

http://skepdic.com/iqrace.html

That's not really relevant to Skeptic's point. His point had nothing to do with whether or not it was true that different races have different levels of intelligence, it had to do with whether or not this even mattered as far as determining race relations among individuals.
I can't imagine how you misinterpreted this.

 

[Cleopatra]

Can one be a racist or at the very least harbor racist beliefs or feelings and not know it?

Judging from myself I would reply "yes" without any hesitation.

I have caugh myself thinking or saying things about people, arabs mostly that they are nothing but racist.

The other day I was discussing with my associate about a collegue. George was saying that there is something in the man in question that he doesn't like but he couldn't spot it. " I know what it is", I replied " X was born in Egypt, he has the typical slavish arabic mentality that's why you don't like him".

My partner stared at me surprized and he told me that this was a typical case of racism. He was right of course but in all honesty I have to admit that in my mind a certain type of negative behavior is coined as "arabic".

I have pondered on this incident , trying to figure out how this idea got into my head. Was it because of ignorance or was it because of good knowledge of the arabs, since I have socialized a lot with them?All of the Arabs I personally know do not have any slavish mentality, on the contrary they are very proud and intelligent people, so what was wrong?

I have grown up to believe in the idea of the industrious and intelligent jew that is characterized by a great sense of solidarity towards his people.So, if I have to define myself in contrast of the "enemies" I have to attribute to them some characteristics that can be spotted if you choose to interpret their history in a specific way.

I think that when it comes to racism the question is how easy is to convert certain types of prejudice to a collective hatred that can lead to a genocide and I think that in order to have such pheanomena what people need is official and systematic indoctrination.

I don't wish to underestimate my prejudices but I believe that the personal deslikes have nothing to do with the systematic indoctrination that can result to genocides.

 

[American]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Unconscious Racism

I can't imagine how you misinterpreted this.

Because if you are generally against taking money from those who earn it and giving it to those who don't, then he assumes you are a racist.

 

[Rob Lister]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Unconscious Racism

I'm a racist. A culturalist actually. It really isn't about the color, it's about the culture. Race just gives me (and others) an easy hook on which to hang the stereotypical hat. Stereotyping can't be eliminated but it I can keep from accentuating it unnecessarily.

There are times when it is useful. G6 gave an execellent example by promoting herself as 'a women of color'. Even though such distinctions may not make a noticible difference to everyone, it can be a useful communication/sales/teaching tool -- a foot in the door, so to speak. That 'she happens' to be such could be just as useful as if 'she happens' to have so other natural ability, such as the gift of gab, a sweet smile, an endearing charm, etc.

That some suggest 'it shouldn't matter', doesn't matter, because the facts speak for themselves.

 

[Dancing David]

A reworking:
BRIAN: I am not a racist!
(Silence)
WOMAN: Only a true racist denies his racism...
BRIAN: Well then, tell me: are YOU a racist?
WOMAN: .......


I think that it's possible for a person NOT to be a racist. However, I think it's IMPOSSIBLE for that person's comments, however innocent, to be interpreted as such by some hypersensitive kneejerk with a chip on their shoulder.

Take the story above about the 'Slut with big ol' lips' - I guarantee you that if those same women had been talking about Jagger or Tyler, the black women would have had NO problem with it.

This is silly, if a black person is offeneded by comments at a professional meeting, and they were just part of a series of offensive comments. Then it is responsible to listen to the people who say that they are offended. You are supporting steroe types if you don't listen when people ask if you mean to be offensive.

It is not a retort to say "Well you would feel different if they were talking about a white person.", because if you are black and you feel that other people are being offensive, you have the right to say "I feel you are being offensive." The correct response is to then say wether or not you meant to be offensive, not to just say "Well I am no racist.". The women who were offended by the comment were not "hypersensitive kneejerk with a chip on their shoulder.", I have seen them both deal with very angry and confrontational situations with great skill and care.
Again if someone says they are offended by a comment, that is a moment to pause and state your intentions and to listen to the other people. It is not a time to just state, "Well I am not a racist". You can always say that you did not intend your statement in a racial fashion, but there is a difference.
Black people should not have to shrug off potentialy racial statements anymore than a jewish person should have to ignore comments about "Kikes" and "they really jewed them" or a person of japanese descent should not have to shrug off a comment where anger is described as "japping out".

 

[Dancing David]

Sadly, he didn't ask the little writer what third person plural pronoun he should use.

There's cultural sensitivity and then there's freaking idiocy.

Quite true despite my previous comments!

In my local town there is like this , um discipline problem in the local schools. And guess what, there is a real problem with discipline amongst the most prevalent minority. So the school district is currently in trouble and there is a law suit pending. Because for some reason people feel that the amount of discipline meted to a racial minority should reflect the percentage of that minority in the school district.

So seriously if 15% of the town is black they are saying that 15% of the students suspended should be black. I think it is good to make sure that the same behaviors warrant the same discipline but if the system judges behavior and not skin color , then this is a very silly argument.