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"Ukraine" or "The Ukraine"?

RSLancastr

www.StopSylvia.com
RSLancastr
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For decades, I have seen and heard this country/region referred to as "The Ukraine". Lately, I have noticed it being referred to as simply "Ukraine".

Is this a result of the breakup of the former Soviet Union?
 
As far as I know it has always been "Ukraine", even when it was a Soviet Socialist Republic. You wouldn't refer to "The America" or "The Australia". "The" only seems to be used when the name of a country is a description - "The United States of America" "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". "The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics". In all other situations, there is no definite article. Australia, Germany, Japan, China.

I'm pretty sure a Ukrainian would say that it's always been just "Ukraine".

(I have Ukranian relatives)

ETA: Or, what he said.
 
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arthwollipot said:
As far as I know it has always been "Ukraine", even when it was a Soviet Socialist Republic. You wouldn't refer to "The America" or "The Australia". "The" only seems to be used when the name of a country is a description - "The United States of America" "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". "The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics". In all other situations, there is no definite article. Australia, Germany, Japan, China.

I'm pretty sure a Ukrainian would say that it's always been just "Ukraine".

(I have Ukranian relatives)
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You may want to check out that Wikipedia page.
 
It has been Ukraine since the breakup of the USSR. When it was part of the Soviet Union it was The Ukraine. As in The Ukrainian part... or simply The Ukraine. Now on its own it is Ukraine. You would be corrected there if you called it The Ukraine...They enjoy their independence from Russia...something else seems to be bothering them at the moment though. :-)
 
RandyN said:
It has been Ukraine since the breakup of the USSR. When it was part of the Soviet Union it was The Ukraine. As in The Ukrainian part... or simply The Ukraine. Now on its own it is Ukraine. You would be corrected there if you called it The Ukraine...They enjoy their independence from Russia...something else seems to be bothering them at the moment though. :-)
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Or as was just pointed out in the Wikipedia page, under the USSR it was called The Ukranian Soviet Socialist Republic.

I think before the Russian Revolution in 1918 it was called Ukrainistan.
 
It's "Ukraine". It was referred to as "the Ukraine" when it was a region, rather than a country.
 
Etymologically, traceable back to about the 12th Century, Krajina (whence Ukraine or Ukrayina) meant "borderlands" or "frontier." In the time of the USSR, and even before, Ukraine was considered a frontier, and hence called "the Ukraine," much the same way the Dutch word nederland gave us "the Netherlands."

After gaining independence from Russia, Ukrainians decided that despite the etymological venerability of their name, to be called anyone else's frontier was demeaning. Hence, they kept the historical name but dropped the definite article in English renderings. Officially, the name changed from Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic to simply Ukraine, but this didn't stop common usage from referring to them as the Ukraine any more than the former name made their political system a republic. Ukrainians are somewhat sensitive about their country being called "the Ukraine" by Westerners, since it doesn't recognize their sovereignty and implies they are still just a frontier of Russia.

This information comes from what Ukrainians themselves told me when I was visiting Kyiv (called Kiev by Westerners) in 2004. Since then, I've also noticed a shift from na to v' for referring to being in Ukraine. One is on (na) a mountaintop while hiking, or at (na) a ranch while working with cattle. Back when Ukraine was the Ukraine, Ukrainians and others said they were in (na) Ukraine while in-country. Now they say one is in (v') Ukraine. V', like most prepositions, has multiple translations, but most properly means in or of. This was the preposition Ukrainians themselves used when traveling -- I'm in (v') Russia today, or in (v') France. Yet until very recently, they were only ever in (na) Ukraine, even when speaking of themselves at home. To me, this means that the etymological underpinnings of Krajina have only recently been subsumed by politics. A case could be made for saying the linguistic change implies that those in Ukraine considered themselves to be on (na) the frontier until very recently.

Of course it's all politics now. Sensitive Westerners don't use the definite article.
 
On another, slightly derailing note, why does Ukraine suddenly need the equivalent of the GDP of Panama in aid?
 
The Wedding Present are a British indie band, which in 1989 released an album of Ukrainian folk songs, compiled from sessions they perfomed on DJ John Peel's radio show. I can't locate my copy of the album at the moment, but IIRC, the liner notes refer to the controversy over the name.

Further back, I recall a movie from the 40s or 50s, which referred to a country called Ukrainia.
 
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Over the years, I've noticed a few other countries getting a "the", and noticed a general trend to drop the "the" more recently, and even thought about starting a thread here to ask why in general (two different whys: both getting the "the" in the first place and dropping it more recently). Two other examples are Congo and Sudan from "the Congo" and "the Sudan".

The rule I inferred when I thought about it a bit was that "the" is used for a name that's really a word for a natural description of the place and not used when the place's name is just a name, unconnected to the nature of the environment, landscape, or people, and its origins are lost or archaic and out of use in the general language. For example, the Netherlands are still the Nether Lands because the word "nether" is still in use (even if fading away). That would also explain the Congo, which to me had always referred to a western African jungle ecosystem when not used for the country. But I never knew of an alternate use for "the Sudan" and wondered whether one existed. I knew it meant "land of the blacks" in another language like Arabic, so I thought maybe it's still just a word with the same meaning in that language, rather than a centuries-old frozen reference in a language that's changed since then (like "Saxon" no longer refers to a particular type of knife Saxons were known for carrying in English). Another factor in the Sudan is probably the fact that that place had never been in the news for most of my life until 1993; having attention called to it and suddenly getting its name spoken in my country a lot more often because of political & historical events would seem to have called people's attention to it and made them notice that having an article there was a bit weird.
 
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commandlinegamer said:
The Wedding Present are a British indie band, which in 1989 released an album of Ukrainian folk songs, compiled from sessions they perfomed on DJ John Peel's radio show. I can't locate my copy of the album at the moment, but IIRC, the liner notes refer to the controversy over the name.

Further back, I recall a movie from the 40s or 50s, which referred to a country called Ukrainia.
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It was just one member of The Wedding Present who was in The Ukrainians, I think. They also did some great covers versions of songs translated into Ukrainian:







ETA Never mind, I was forgetting that The Wedding Present did Ukrainian John Peel sessions before Solowka formed The Ukrainians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Українські_Виступи_в_Івана_Піла
 
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commandlinegamer said:
The Wedding Present are a British indie band, which in 1989 released an album of Ukrainian folk songs, compiled from sessions they perfomed on DJ John Peel's radio show. I can't locate my copy of the album at the moment, but IIRC, the liner notes refer to the controversy over the name.

Further back, I recall a movie from the 40s or 50s, which referred to a country called Ukrainia.
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That may have a parallel with Argentina/The Argentine.
 
I always wondered about that. Russian and Ukrainian have no definite article, so I wonder who first put the "the" in there.
 
A slight hijack, what would The Czech Republic be called with reference to the Republic? Would it ever be correct to say "I'm going to Czech next year"?
 
crescent said:
A slight hijack, what would The Czech Republic be called with reference to the Republic? Would it ever be correct to say "I'm going to Czech next year"?
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Not in English, as far as I'm aware.

ETA: Wikipedia tells me that there is an uncommon form "Czechia" (or "Česko" in Czech). I've certainly never heard it.
 
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That said, I doubt that anyone ever says "I'm going to visit the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia".
 
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