Two brief arguments against Hell

[CplFerro]

By which I refer to eternal Hell, as typically portrayed in modernity as a place of hideous torture for the damned.

Arguments against the existence of Hell,

(1) The Bible promises salvation and eternal life to those who jump through whatever hoops there may be in worshipping Christ. If Hell existed, the souls condemned to it would still be living lives, just very unpleasant ones. This would make the reward for following Jesus not eternal life (everyone gets that regardless), but eternal comfort. Ergo, since Hell is where people go who do not win eternal life, it must be the opposite of life, namely death.

(2) If God is an infinitely compassionate being, he would suffer infinite pain were even a single soul condemned to hellfire. What's more, since Hell is eternal, he would suffer it eternally. Effectively, God would himself be burning in hell with the torment of empathy for the damned.

Cpl Ferro

 

[empeake]

(2) If God is an infinitely compassionate being, he would suffer infinite pain were even a single soul condemned to hellfire. What's more, since Hell is eternal, he would suffer it eternally. Effectively, God would himself be burning in hell with the torment of empathy for the damned.

God 1.0 (Old Testament) is not infinitely compassionate, but rather vengeful, so this argument would flawed from the beginning. God 1.1 (New Testament) is more on the loving side, but I think there's still the question of Him suffering. If God can suffer, wouldn't this mean that He is vulnerable, and therefore not omnipotent?

 

[infornography]

There are several quotes that seem to indicate Hell as different things.

Most of the earlier words translated to Hell are sheol (sp?) which simply means grave or death.

Later on Hell is indicated to be some sort of existance during life in which you are simply seperated from God spiritually and can be extended into the idea that hell is simply the spiritual seperation from God.

In the NT there are a few passages that seem to indicate Hell as a place of more active torment, but they are not clearly stated in such a way that one can be truly sure that it is not metaphor or something else altogether.

Finally in Revelations there is reference to the end of the world being inundated in a lake of fire and then snuffed out for eternity.

Because of this vagueness, there is actually a good bit of debate as to the existance and nature of Hell in Christian Mythology.

 

[fuelair]

And (its' late, no sources) there are sources that consider sheol to be essentially a city garbage dump/burning pit (as in bad guys will be tossed into the trash instead of being buried.

 

[infornography]

And (its' late, no sources) there are sources that consider sheol to be essentially a city garbage dump/burning pit (as in bad guys will be tossed into the trash instead of being buried.

I think you are thinking of Gehenna, which is also commonly attributed to be part of the (possibly mistaken) concept of Hell. It was effectively a giant pile of corpses and trash that burned for a long LONG time while more was being added to it. Can't remember anything about where it was specifically. Its not hard to find if you are curious about it though.

 

[Cheap Thrills]

From Wikipedia...

'Gehenna' is a word tracing to Greek, ultimately from Hebrew: גי(א)-הינום Gêhinnôm (also Gei ben-Hinnom (Hebrew: גיא בן הינום) meaning the Valley of Hinnom. The valley, which forms the southern border of ancient Jerusalem, is first mentioned in Joshua 15:8. Originally it referred to a garbage dump in a deep narrow valley right outside the walls of Jerusalem (in modern-day Israel) where fires were kept burning to consume the refuse and keep down the stench. It is also the location where bodies of executed criminals, or individuals denied a proper burial, would be dumped. Today, "Gehenna" is often used as a synonym for Hell.

 

[gfunkusarelius]

yeah i think the OP was arguing against a version of hell which is more of a common misconception than a scholarly biblical interpretation. i am not a bible expert, but i have learned a lot more in my own readings after leaving the church than i did in the church. they tend to talk about just the bits that they find most "important" and the descriptions of hell get really twisted.

 

[advancedatheist]

By which I refer to eternal Hell, as typically portrayed in modernity as a place of hideous torture for the damned.

I think your understanding of "hell" doesn't reflect the current zeitgeist, my friend. Now many christians tend to define "hell" as the allegedly horrible psychological state of those who remain alienated or separated from god:

Hell Hath No Fury

Hm, I must exist in a state of "hell" now. It doesn't feel so bad.

 

[fuelair]

Thanks!!

I think you are thinking of Gehenna, which is also commonly attributed to be part of the (possibly mistaken) concept of Hell. It was effectively a giant pile of corpses and trash that burned for a long LONG time while more was being added to it. Can't remember anything about where it was specifically. Its not hard to find if you are curious about it though.

and Cheap Thrills for the correction/assistance. Thus the dangers of posting late on a long day with not all neurons firing!!!

 

[infornography]

and Cheap Thrills for the correction/assistance. Thus the dangers of posting late on a long day with not all neurons firing!!!

Indeed. I understand how it is.

 

[Fizzer]

By which I refer to eternal Hell, as typically portrayed in modernity as a place of hideous torture for the damned.

Arguments against the existence of Hell,

(1) The Bible promises salvation and eternal life to those who jump through whatever hoops there may be in worshipping Christ. If Hell existed, the souls condemned to it would still be living lives, just very unpleasant ones. This would make the reward for following Jesus not eternal life (everyone gets that regardless), but eternal comfort. Ergo, since Hell is where people go who do not win eternal life, it must be the opposite of life, namely death.

This is basically the Jehovah's Witnesses belief regarding hell as well.

 

[advancedatheist]

This is basically the Jehovah's Witnesses belief regarding hell as well.

In other words, JW's and other christian sects which teach the annihilation of the wicked validate Epicureanism in a back-handed way: Epicurus got it partially right about the nature of death, at least for a good swath of humanity.

 

[c4ts]

Jesus was particularly fond of the phrase "wailing and gnashing of teeth" in describing Hell. Then there's this thing:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/apocalypsepeter-roberts.html

Of course modern conceptions of Hell are generally based on Dante who isn't a biblical or Early Christian source. He's much more sophisticated IMO.

Your second argument is better. There are many things at work in justice which the Bible fails to consider at one point or another.

 

[Polaris]

I think your understanding of "hell" doesn't reflect the current zeitgeist, my friend. Now many christians tend to define "hell" as the allegedly horrible psychological state of those who remain alienated or separated from god:

Hell Hath No Fury

Hm, I must exist in a state of "hell" now. It doesn't feel so bad.

I think I'd rather hang out with Socrates, Virgil and Sappho (and Mark Twain) than a bunch of stuffy saints, martyr wack-jobs, and insufferable born-again sheep.

 

[c4ts]

I think your understanding of "hell" doesn't reflect the current zeitgeist, my friend. Now many christians tend to define "hell" as the allegedly horrible psychological state of those who remain alienated or separated from god.

So Hell has all the whorehouses, bars, casinos, and other recreational facilities God doesn't like and the only punishment is no God to tell you it's wrong all the time?

 

[Beerina]

Ergo, since Hell is where people go who do not win eternal life, it must be the opposite of life, namely death.

Although I frequently point out this concept is silly as well, that The Chosen live and those who aren't, remain dead. The criteria as lain out to become a chosen one are rather silly -- you have to believe in Jesus? Uhhhh, why again? Why is faith so important to said deity? You have to do good things? Isn't that a wasted efford when God could do it, and much more easily? And worse, the reward for doing good things is placement in a heaven where those skills are perfectly useless, never to be used again.

 

[advancedatheist]

So Hell has all the whorehouses, bars, casinos, and other recreational facilities God doesn't like and the only punishment is no God to tell you it's wrong all the time?

I don't know about the casino part. Pascal said we had to place and win a bet to get into heaven, even though in other contexts christians express horror at the thought that chance plays a major role in the universe.

 

[advancedatheist]

The criteria as lain out to become a chosen one are rather silly -- you have to believe in Jesus? Uhhhh, why again? Why is faith so important to said deity?

And what will keep you from choosing to rebel against god once you get to heaven? After all, according to the christian world view, this has already happened at least once. And for all I know, god could have predestined a christian reading this post to become the next satan.

 

[Abdul Alhazred]

God 1.0 (Old Testament) is not infinitely compassionate, but rather vengeful, so this argument would flawed from the beginning. God 1.1 (New Testament) is more on the loving side ...

So odd that so many people think something of the sort. Some subtle Chistian meme that even infects non-believers.

No explicit mention in the Bible of torment after death until Jesus says so.

The Old Testament Yahweh only kills you or has you killed.

 

[Atlas]

Most translations of Revelations 20:14 today say Death and Hades where the King James version says Death and Hell below. Along with Gehenna and Sheol, Hades is the third term translated as Hell.

The idea that God throws Death into the Lake of Fire is interesting. As if Death is a person or a thing. I never understood why God would punish Death for eternity. It does seem like God is throwing it into the trash to be consumed. It is called the second death which one suspects is supposed to be more final than the first one, kind of like the end with an exclamation point.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And Death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.