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TV detection

Smike

Master Poster
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
Messages
2,095
I got a letter from the TV licensing people a couple of weeks ago. It was a fairly standard threatening, pay-up-or-we'll-send-the-boys-over letter. I don't own a TV, so I'm not particularly worried.

On the letter, it mentioned something about them using detection devices to find out if I had a TV or not. As I live in student halls, with other students all around, I'm fairly skeptical about their ability to isolate my signal (if I had one) from the others.

But the question is, can they detect TVs at all? If so, how? Could they tell the difference between a TV and a CRT monitor?
 
I'm not sure what method they use, but I would think the modulation of the emmissions from the tv tube would correlate with the modulation of the original TV signal. A good question would be could they detect flat panel TVs, since they do not use components that generate large EM fields.

There was a story a few years ago (in the '80s, I think) where the Soviets were spying on Americans as they typed documents on computers. They could apperently decipher what was being displayed on screen based on the RF emmissions from the CRT tube. I may be remembering the details incorrectly, but it was something like that. Of course, it may have been just a story, but I don't doubt it can be done. When computers used to use TVs for monitors, I used to be able to hear a change in pitch in the god-awful high-pitched tone coming from the display as people typed (on the old Apple II series computers). Most people thought I was nuts (and they were probably right, but for different reasons), but there were a few others who could hear it, too. They just didn't know the source until I pointed it out.
 
I remember the detection vans driving slowly through neighbourhoods when I was a lad living in England. It always irritated me because I couldn't understand how they could possibly detect a passive receiver. I'm still not sure how they could tell back then, but law enforcement, spy agencies, nowadays have the technology to park outside a building and be able to see what is on someones monitor inside.
 
I'm still not sure how they could tell back then, but law enforcement, spy agencies, nowadays have the technology to park outside a building and be able to see what is on someones monitor inside.

Do they, now? Where can I buy such technology?
 
I worked low voltage.

If you live in a dorm that was built in the last 12 years or so, they can probably detect it as every wire is usally "home run" to a paticular spot. There are devices that you can buy at ADI and other electronic stores that detect signal, and what type. I am not sure how they work.

Before "home runs" were popular in the industry they used to use a lot of splitters, in which way they could have no idea. at least from the wire side.
 
How exactly does this licensing system work? Is it per house or per tv?

I'm surprised, since you use this system, that it isn't just taxed as part of income.
 
Most receivers also broadcast at a very low power. They aren't intended to, but nothing is done to prevent it, so they do. It should be quite possible to build a TV that the 'detection vans' couldn't detect. Industry doesn't bother, though.

What do receivers generally broadcast and why? (I'm going to use TV for this example)

1) You need to know a bit about electronic mixers. A mixer is a device for combining two (or more) A/C signals (generally Radio Freqency). Lets say you put signal A (@10Mhz) and signal B (@1000Mhz) into a mixer. At the output, you get 4 signals, the sum of A and B frequencies (1010Mhz), the diference (990Mhz) and the two originals. You'll see why this is important in a bit.
2) The information for a TV broadcast is first encoded on a RF signal of about 10 or 11 Mhz. This is called the I.F. or Intermediate Frequency. TV broadcast signals all start with the same IF freqency.
3) The final broadcast freqency is obtained by mixing the IF with a signal that is 10 Mhz or so (whatever the IF freqency is) shy of the final broadcast frequency. For example if you want a final broadcast frequency of 1050Mhz, you would mix the 10Mhz I.F. with a 1040Mhz signal and filter everything but the 'sum'
4) When a TV recieves a broadcast, it is taken back a part to get the original 10 Mhz I.F. signal.
5) So, the TV makes a 1040Mhz signal to mix with the broadcast so that it can get the 10Mhz I.F. out of its internal mixer.

2 things frequently leak from TVs and are broadcast by its antenna, the 1040Mhz mix signal, and the 10Mhz I.F. These are detectable from outside the house. Mostly the mix signal is what gets out. So, the 'detection vans' listen for a unmodulated signal 10Mhz or so under the known broadcast channels.

The recieving path of TV can be made to not leak those signal back out. It just takes an extra filter or two. But, since it would not improve the function of the TV for what it is bought for (to watch TV), the expense is rarely or ever justifiable to the TV manufacturers.
 
I forgot to add...

In the states, the same thing is done by the police. But they use radar detector detectors. Same exact principle.

There are radar detectors (nice ones) that aren't detectable by the polices detectors. The Valentine 1 would be my first example.
 
Wait, what? Police use radar to measure car speed, sure, but we don't have any liscensing to watch TV. It is free.
 
How exactly does this licensing system work? Is it per house or per tv?

I'm surprised, since you use this system, that it isn't just taxed as part of income.
It is per house. Which is why it amused me when I bought a digital adaptor for our television and then got a letter from the licensing authority telling me to buy a licence. A quick check on their system should have told them that we have a licence, which I and my better half contribute equally to, but which is paid with a cheque in her name.

We don't do it as part of income tax because some people don't have television. And will be only too happy to tell you so.

Cheers,
Rat.
 
Wait, what? Police use radar to measure car speed, sure, but we don't have any liscensing to watch TV. It is free.

It's to detect people who are using radar receivers to detect speed traps. I presume they are illegal in some states.

In the UK it appears to be a grey area. Last I heard it's legal to own a radar detector but not to use it. Possibly things have been clarified since then. Certainly the motoring magazines carry plenty of adverts for them.
 
This is much tougher than just detecting a TV with an RF receiver, though. Much tougher.
It's more complicated, but with the right equipment, not so much tougher.
Basically, a CRT monitor uses standardized frequencies to determine the colour of each pixel on the screen. A shortwave ariel can detect the localised EM field for each pixel, and by measuring its output recreate the colour. In this way, a map of what is on the screen can be built up, which means that you are basically viewing whatever's on the subject screen at the same time. Alternatively, hook the ariel to a recording device, and play back at your leisure. I believe the FBI has pioneered the use of Van Eck Phreaking to spy on organised crime.
 
It's to detect people who are using radar receivers to detect speed traps. I presume they are illegal in some states.

In the UK it appears to be a grey area. Last I heard it's legal to own a radar detector but not to use it. Possibly things have been clarified since then. Certainly the motoring magazines carry plenty of adverts for them.

Radar detectors are pretty much useless in the UK and most of the speedguns now use Laser. Better off getting a GPS based device, which is legal and will be hard to ever ban without banning SatNav and killing off the government proposals to introduce road charging and ISA by having a smart GPS device fitted to all cars.
 
When the TV licence was made law in the UK, and they introduced 'Detector Vans', the BBC made a big song and dance of how people had to pay and how this fleet of Vans would catch them...

Trouble is...most of the early 'detector vans' that people saw on the streets of the UK...had nothing in them...They just cruised up and down the block...and the man inside just turned a crank to move the circular aerial to look like they were homing in on someone...

It worked...people paid up...and the BBC kitted the rest of the vans out...

But think...you can go to jail for watching TV

DB
 
Lots of theoretical discussion here, but no answer to the OP :"But the question is, can they detect TVs at all? "

Do they actually use detectors?

How does the court system in England work? In th USA, the cops had tp prove to the courts that radar guns work, did they have to do the same in England for TV detectors?
 
When the TV licence was made law in the UK, and they introduced 'Detector Vans', the BBC made a big song and dance of how people had to pay and how this fleet of Vans would catch them...

Trouble is...most of the early 'detector vans' that people saw on the streets of the UK...had nothing in them...They just cruised up and down the block...and the man inside just turned a crank to move the circular aerial to look like they were homing in on someone...

It worked...people paid up...and the BBC kitted the rest of the vans out...
And don't forget about the cat detector vans!
Clerk: What cat detector van?

Praline: The cat detector van from the Ministry of Housinge.

Clerk: Housinge?

Praline: It was spelt like that on the van. I'm very observant. I never seen so many bleedin' aerials. The man said their equipment could pinpoint a purr at four hundred yards, and Eric being such a happy cat was a piece of cake.

Clerk: How much did you pay for this?

Praline: Sixty quid and eight for the fruit-bat.
[/obligatory python reference]
 
They have a database of everyone who doesnt have a licence.

Then they go round to the house that doesnt have a licence registered and use a 'hand held' detector..and then they knock on the door...

They even have 4WD vehicles and motorcycles...

The vans are few and far between now...they only use them in high 'no licence' areas...

But the 'hand held' units are in full use...



DB
 

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