Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
Critical thinking: How do you know trans women are harassing lesbians?
Posted By: jimbob
Last edited by a moderator:
Cont: Transwomen are not women part XII (also merged)
- Thread starter Upchurch
- Start date
-
- Tags
- trans women
- Status
Critical thinking: How do you know trans women are harassing lesbians?
Matthew Best
Penultimate Amazing
Perhaps you could start a thread about that?
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
You were making an argument from "linguistic sense" but none of those terms are remotely confusing, contradictory, or nonsensical.
Hopefully they have more persuasive arguments than you do. I'm guessing, though, that they will pull the same move you did at #203 and declare that any failure to drop the old meanings in favor of the new ones will be condemned as bigotry.
It's basically linguistic presciptivism, but with more moral grandstanding.
Last edited:
Cat Not Included
Critical Thinker
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2016
- Messages
- 477
This seems like "is it bigotry" is about as constructive as "is it art"? Does it matter? Your reasons for wanting to not date someone who is Jewish/white/Republican/trans/whatever may or not may not be bigotry, but as dating is an incredibly personal choice and is far different from hiring a person, selling property to them, or providing them medical care. Nobody has an obligation to be romatically/sexually involved with any one else, and literally no reason is too small not to be a valid reason to not be interested in them. You've got a chance to date Chris Evans but he's way too Marvel for you and you only like DC, I mean, you're an idiot, but that's absolutely your choice to be an idiot.
But is there any value to pondering whether its "bigotry" or not? And is anyone who's not massively anti-trans trying to rile people up saying it "is" bigotry for a woman not to want to date a trans woman? I mean, probably someone, somewhere thinks that. Someone somewhere thinks Star Wars eps 1-3 have a wonderful love story between Padme and Anakin. Why do we care what they think?
But is there any value to pondering whether its "bigotry" or not? And is anyone who's not massively anti-trans trying to rile people up saying it "is" bigotry for a woman not to want to date a trans woman? I mean, probably someone, somewhere thinks that. Someone somewhere thinks Star Wars eps 1-3 have a wonderful love story between Padme and Anakin. Why do we care what they think?
Matthew Best
Penultimate Amazing
Currently in Australia, you have the case of Sall Grover, who set up a female-only social network and dating/networking app called Giggle, but is being sued by a trans woman called Roxanne Tickle (possibly not their real name) because the app rejected them due to their appearing to be male.
This gives rise to the rather delightful-sounding legal case Tickle v Giggle.
Lesbians are saying that when they look at lesbian dating apps they are finding lots of people who appear to be men, and that's not what they want to see. If you go to a dating app for [insert characteristic X here] and find a load of people without [characteristic X] is it bigoted to complain about that?
This gives rise to the rather delightful-sounding legal case Tickle v Giggle.
Lesbians are saying that when they look at lesbian dating apps they are finding lots of people who appear to be men, and that's not what they want to see. If you go to a dating app for [insert characteristic X here] and find a load of people without [characteristic X] is it bigoted to complain about that?
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
It certainly seems to fit the dictionary definition as a "prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group," where prejudice consists in prejudging people (e.g. males) and finding them undesirable on those grounds, without bothering to look any deeper. That sort of prejudice abounds on dating apps, though, since they are often designed to give users a handful of shallow characteristics to select from and make rapid decisions. People are often rejected just for being ugly, short, or old.
Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena, Pronouns: he/him
You're welcome to look them up to see if anyone has published better arguments. That's just the top four links from my google search, by the way, a search which you are more than capable of doing yourself.
Maybe. Language matters, as I keep saying. Trans people and organisations have asked me to refer to them in this way and I see no cost in doing so.
Matthew Best
Penultimate Amazing
The definition I see when I google is:
"obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction, in particular prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group."
You missed out the qualifier "obstinate or unreasonable".
I think we've hit one of those things where internet and real life are different.
Okay in the real world if someone goes "Wanna have sex?" and you go "No" you don't generally have to follow up with a 50 Slide Power Point Presentation outlining why. People don't have to justify themselves in the moment to anywhere near that degree and, to talk a deep breath of the real air people, someone look me in the eye where and tell me the number of cases of a someone being turned down for sex because they are transgender and that not being 100% completely obvious to everyone involved as the reason and doesn't need to be spelled out is anything but "statistically never."
If you don't want to have sex with someone you just say you don't want to have sex with them. If they demand an answer and don't drop it (how functionally in the real world that would even work aside) and they get an answer they don't like, that's on them.
I'm struggling to imagine a realistic scenario where this is the problem in the sense the OP is presenting it.
Okay. So the narrative is the woke college Tumblr transgender activist are... what? What exactly? Going to force us to have sex with them as if we are all literal genie and they can trap us in a "You say you're sexually attracted to women, I define as a woman, ergo you have to sleep with me" and then we have to go "Damn! I fell right into that one!"
Okay in the real world if someone goes "Wanna have sex?" and you go "No" you don't generally have to follow up with a 50 Slide Power Point Presentation outlining why. People don't have to justify themselves in the moment to anywhere near that degree and, to talk a deep breath of the real air people, someone look me in the eye where and tell me the number of cases of a someone being turned down for sex because they are transgender and that not being 100% completely obvious to everyone involved as the reason and doesn't need to be spelled out is anything but "statistically never."
If you don't want to have sex with someone you just say you don't want to have sex with them. If they demand an answer and don't drop it (how functionally in the real world that would even work aside) and they get an answer they don't like, that's on them.
I'm struggling to imagine a realistic scenario where this is the problem in the sense the OP is presenting it.
Okay. So the narrative is the woke college Tumblr transgender activist are... what? What exactly? Going to force us to have sex with them as if we are all literal genie and they can trap us in a "You say you're sexually attracted to women, I define as a woman, ergo you have to sleep with me" and then we have to go "Damn! I fell right into that one!"
Last edited:
Given Australian courts’ reluctance to distinguish gender and sex, or even define Man and Woman I expect the verdict will go along the lines “if someone says they are a woman they can use the dating site”. It will be another setback for lesbian and bi women.
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2008
- Messages
- 18,095
I can think of two broad scenarios where the 'problem' presents itself:
1. A transgender person complains about personal difficulty dating and that is, either correctly or incorrectly, interpreted as them claiming they're calling people bigots for not wanting to do the sex with them.
2. An anti-trans activist uses their own personal preferences to plate the turd; claiming their other bigoted actions and arguments are actually just people engaged in lesbian erasure. It's a simple deflections which really does boil down to 'genitals I don't want to sex are not really women, and if you disagree you're trying to get me raped' as if it were not a transparent rationalization at best and calculated dishonesty at worst.
Now having spent a lot of time with a lot of transgender people, my personal observation is the people declaring, fully out of the blue, that they wouldn't sleep with a transgender person is way more common. Way more. In the, "Person: Some Rando: I WOULD NEVER SLEEP WITH A TRANS WOMAN! Person: Sir, this is a Wendy's" Construction.
EDIT: I can't be the only one who noticed that the cited survey where it's claimed lesbians as a group don't think of trans women as women, even leaving aside the 'want to make sex with /= a woman', says that a 'small minority' of lesbians would have sex with a trans woman when that 'small minority' is 'almost one in three'.
Last edited:
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
Careful. I've been told we're not supposed to bring the real world into this discussion.
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2005
- Messages
- 96,955
You are ignoring the point a number of us made:
Bigotry and who one is attracted to for sex or the purposes of dating are 2 separate things.
Stop conflating them and we can move this discussion forward or be done with it.
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2005
- Messages
- 96,955
Then that's one more thing on the list as to why I don't want to have sex with them ... too pushy.Joe said:
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
I disagree. Seems to me the process of initial attraction is going to involve a large number of subconscious snap judgements, some of which may be made along lines of (apparent) class, race, sex, age, religion, handicap status, etc.
Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk
Thank you.
The OP assumes that one must accept any sexual advance if they're a compatible orientation.
Matthew Best
Penultimate Amazing
Some lesbians say they are increasingly being pressured and coerced into accepting trans women as partners - then shunned and even threatened for speaking out.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385
Weirdly, this article has its own Wikipedia page, which is a bit longer than the article itself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/"We're_being_pressured_into_sex_by_some_trans_women"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385
Weirdly, this article has its own Wikipedia page, which is a bit longer than the article itself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/"We're_being_pressured_into_sex_by_some_trans_women"
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2005
- Messages
- 96,955
So I'm an ageist then because I think that wrinkled old Rupert Murdoch is physically unattractive?
Am I a religious bigot because I think those men bowing their heads over and over against the wailing wall are idiots even if I have nothing against anyone else of the Jewish faith, like say Jon Stewart?
Sorry, it's not an all of your snap judgements or none phenomena.
Premise 1: Some people are dicks
Premise 2: Transgendered humans are people
Conclusion : Some transgendered humans are dicks
Binary-gendered can hardly claim sole ownership to such quality.
I've merged the Bigotry for lesbians to reject transwomen? thread with this one.
As an aside, please try to be vaguely civil to each other
As an aside, please try to be vaguely civil to each other
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic Posted By: jimbob
- Status