• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Toxic Online Feminism

luchog

Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
Joined
Aug 15, 2005
Messages
16,202
Location
The Emerald City
A great article on the toxic fringe of online feminism. Anyone who has been involved in the A+ thread should be familiar with most of the article. A good examination about how the radicals are shutting down real discourse, and degrading the image of feminism, at for those active online.

Feminism’s Toxic Twitter Wars

Excerpts:
The Internet also became a crucial place for feminist organizing. When the breast cancer organization Komen for the Cure decided to defund Planned Parenthood in 2012, the overwhelming online backlash led to a reversal of the policy and the departure of the executive who had pushed it. Last year, Women, Action & the Media and the Everyday Sexism Project spearheaded a successful online campaign to get Facebook to ban pro-rape content.

Yet even as online feminism has proved itself a real force for change, many of the most avid digital feminists will tell you that it’s become toxic. Indeed, there’s a nascent genre of essays by people who feel emotionally savaged by their involvement in it—not because of sexist trolls, but because of the slashing righteousness of other feminists. On January 3, for example, Katherine Cross, a Puerto Rican trans woman working on a PhD at the CUNY Graduate Center, wrote about how often she hesitates to publish articles or blog posts out of fear of inadvertently stepping on an ideological land mine and bringing down the wrath of the online enforcers. “I fear being cast suddenly as one of the ‘bad guys’ for being insufficiently radical, too nuanced or too forgiving, or for simply writing something whose offensive dimensions would be unknown to me at the time of publication,” she wrote.

After all, it’s not just privileged white women who find themselves on the wrong side of an online trashing. The prospect can be particularly devastating for marginalized people who depend on the Internet for community. As an academic, Cross studies the terrifying harassment many women face from sexist trolls, but she says that putative allies can be nearly as intimidating.

Being targeted by other activists, she says, “leaves you feeling threatened in the sense that you’re getting turned out of your own home…. The one place that you are able to look to for safety, where you were valued, where there is a lot less of the structural prejudice that makes you feel so outcast in the rest of the world—that’s now been closed to you. That you now have this terrible reputation… I know a lot of friends that live in fear of that.”

If your professional life is tied up with activism, the threat is redoubled. “To suddenly be tarred by the very people that I’m supposed to be able to work with, my allies, as being a sellout or being infatuated with power or being an apologist for this, that and the other privilege—if that kind of reputation gets around, its extremely damaging,” says Cross.
 
Last edited:
A great article on the toxic fringe of online feminism. Anyone who has been involved in the A+ thread should be familiar with most of the article. A good examination about how the radicals are shutting down real discourse, and degrading the image of feminism, at for those active online.

If what is in fact a fairly typical internet argument was capable of shutting down discourse then the internet would be a far quieter place.
 
If what is in fact a fairly typical internet argument was capable of shutting down discourse then the internet would be a far quieter place.


Actually, luchog's quote says (emphasis added) "shutting down real discourse". I'd say that one word is significant.
 

Actual responses on twitter:

https://twitter.com/search?q=#BigBadWolfFeminism&src=hash
Wow do white feminists realize how unsafe they make woc feel in EVERY feminist space? How we are silenced, tone policed #BigBadWolfFeminism
https://twitter.com/search?q=#IStandWithKarnythia&src=hash
We support #IStandWithKarnythia. Feminism is interesectional; being called on your privilege, white supremacy and racism is NOT bullying.
 
https://twitter.com/fakedansavage/status/428592150524080128

Dan Savage ‏@fakedansavage

Huh. The author of this even-handed, balanced, and scrupulously fair piece is being shredded on Twitter: http://www.thenation.com/article/178140/feminisms-toxic-twitter-wars?page=full# … #Irony

https://twitter.com/sarahkendzior/status/428591468375076866
Sarah Kendzior ‏@sarahkendzior

When you denigrate WOC writers as "bullies" you not only perpetuate racism but deprive yourself of the insight of the finest thinkers around

https://twitter.com/RaniaKhalek/status/428599828978106368
Rania Khalek ‏@RaniaKhalek

Most infuriating is she uses WOC who agree with her to say what she knows she can't: That black feminists are bullies. #BigBadWolfFeminism
Is that cheating? A white journalist quoting a black person to make a point she wants to make, but from a black person so it's more credible? I did notice that she mostly used quotes from women of color to make her points. OTOH I'm not sure that her point was "black feminists are bullies". The main example she used happened to be a black feminist.

https://twitter.com/thetrudz/status/428594120249319424
And let's be clear, this "toxicity" they say = "why can't WoC accept our DAILY anti-intersectional, gaslighting, White supremacist essays!"

A long-form response:

Why The Problem Of Online Toxicity Is Not The Same Thing As White Feminists vs. Non-White Feminists
 
It's easy to cherry pick out examples to support either conclusion. Both happen. Non-white women do find legitimate examples of racism and dismissiveness from white feminists. They shouldn't be 'tone policed' out of the conversation. However, it happens a LOT the other way too, where allegations of racism and privileged are simply ad homs used to shout down other feminists (especially white and/or male). There's a reason I usually don't read comments on feminists articles (of financial articles for some reason) any longer.

Whether any given criticism is valid and the way it is employed even if valid determine if it's shouting down, bullying, or tone-policing. Anecdotally the ones I've seen complain most about 'tone-policing' are simply unable to deal with criticism of their criticism being able to dish it out be feeling as if they're entitled not to have to take it back.

This isn't a unique problem to feminism of course, but in my experience it is more common there. It's mostly a problem with internet discussions, but it happens in real life too. There is a reason I could be active in the Pride Alliance in college but decided it wasn't worth the hassle to be in any of the feminist groups. Far too often in class or outside of it I'd say something and be torn apart by some feminists, just for a group to come up to me, quietly, afterword to apologize for their friends and agree with my points. It just wasn't a welcoming environment for a straight, 'white', male.
 
Last edited:
It's easy to cherry pick out examples to support either conclusion. Both happen. Non-white women do find legitimate examples of racism and dismissiveness from white feminists. They shouldn't be 'tone policed' out of the conversation. However, it happens a LOT the other way too, where allegations of racism and privileged are simply ad homs used to shout down other feminists (especially white and/or male). There's a reason I usually don't read comments on feminists articles (of financial articles for some reason) any longer.

Which was pretty much the point of the article, the legitimate complaints and concerns are being drown out by the ideological bullying and victimization culture.
 
So I came across this article in Slate's Double X reacting to the piece and the reactions to it. This in turn linked to an article in The Wire about it.

A few tweets by someone going by Feminista Jones are featured, and she even makes an appearance in the comments under the article. Her tweets seem to be a good illustration of the "trashing" that the article talks about, although she claims that she was being "respectful". I think the tweets speak for themselves though.

I suppose it was completely predictable that the article provoked exactly the sort of reaction that was the subject of the article itself, thus demonstrating its veracity. I saw nothing in the article bashing women of color in general, and a critique of one or two particular women of color is not an attack on all women of color. I sarcastically brought up "tone-policing" above, but isn't this the lamest argument ever? It's basically a kind of special pleading: I don't have to watch my tone, but you do.
 
I knew there was another related article I read. Here it is.


It's sad to see the infighting downing out the legitimate things people are trying to talk about, but let's be hopeful here. There is a dialog about this now and hopefully the community can grow through it. Hopefully the 'call out culture' gets refined and work on other issues can continue.
 
I used to consider myself a feminist, but since these clowns started being so vocal, I've just checked out. They are totally unserious and make feminism look like a farce.
 
I used to consider myself a feminist, but since these clowns started being so vocal, I've just checked out. They are totally unserious and make feminism look like a farce.

But many of them have excellent points that get lost in the noise. If they can learn to respect and listen, as they demand of others, and not to be so rude, they have a lot to contribute. If some of the others can examine the points on their merit and not just from their position, it would help.

There's still stuff to do, although I can't blame you for checking out. Besides here I've not be vocal in the feminist community for many reasons, including your point. :(
 
So, just to skip to the end, have we come up with a generally agreed-upon functional definition of feminism? Or are we still arguing over the Betty Friedan v. Story of O v. lesbianism v. every other possible definition of feminism ever?
 
A great article on the toxic fringe of online feminism. Anyone who has been involved in the A+ thread should be familiar with most of the article. A good examination about how the radicals are shutting down real discourse, and degrading the image of feminism, at for those active online.

Feminism’s Toxic Twitter Wars

Excerpts:


Unfortunately, the piper needs to be paid (a point I sand fast on as a former bagpiper myself). The internet presents, previously, unprecedented exposure and that carries a cost. Even from those one might normally expect to be quite simpatico. Unfortunately, with that internet connection there tends to be also a significant disconnection. I'll take a personal interface over a computer interface every time but understand why some might not be so inclined. The immediate and broad access our modern technological social media society provides comes with its own built in detachment. While both can be the draw to the interaction, the latter tends to be the problem.

That such a specific detached aspect that can draw the timid and reluctant to actually speak their minds is juxtaposed with the unmitigated abuse and vitriol, at times from all sides. While there are computers, screens and keyboards between us, in this modern interface, there are still just people at both ends. Sure, some just don't care (so why care about what they say) but some apparently do seem to forget what's at the other end and perhaps why they might have chosen this technological media to speak their minds. Both are increased with increased exposure and increased detachment.
 
So, just to skip to the end, have we come up with a generally agreed-upon functional definition of feminism? Or are we still arguing over the Betty Friedan v. Story of O v. lesbianism v. every other possible definition of feminism ever?

Condoned, institutionalized sexism? More for women?

I love these "there is no ONE definition of feminism, so you can't criticize it" arguments.This is an attempt to derail discussion about feminism. If feminism is that nebulous, it would be hard to say anything good about it.
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom